Sunday, August 16, 2009

Praxis Question: Best Preservative for Coating Exterior of Buried Ammo Cans?

From Renegade in Knoxville, Tennessee. we have this praxis question:

If a citizen feels the need to ‘plant’ ordnance, what is the best coating for the exterior of the ammo cans in order to best preserve integrity of the metal? I have been advised to use undercoating bought from any local auto store.

Answers, Irregulars?


Oldfart said...

Of course I see no reason to bury ammo, now or in the forseeable future. If I did though, I don't think I'd use G.I. ammo cans.

Sure, they have good handle for carrying and they stack nicely but they rust and given the proper circumstances, they can rust quickly and disasterously.

I'd go to Home Depot and buy a length of 4" ABS sewer pipe and a bunch of glue-on type caps. Then I'd cut the pipe into convenient pieces, glue a cap on one end and start jamming ammo in. As a last act, before gluing the cap on the open end, I'd toss in a couple of plastic film cans with a hole or two in it and an oxygen absorber inside. Mark the end with the oxygen absorbers so you can saw the tubing there in the future.

The ABS will never rust nor will it crack easily. The ammo and any stripper clips it might be on won't rust either since 99.5% of the available oxygen will be captured by the oxygen absorbers.

Anonymous said...

That white rubber roof coating they use on travel trailer roofs is an excellent waterproofer. About $45 a gallon. But a gallon will do 200 sq.ft.. Just the color sucks, so stash some camo paint with your ammo.......mthead

Brock Townsend said...

Here's a recent article that addresses food containers primarily, but also has other good information.

Anonymous said...

Once you have prepared a container and burried it, be sure to have some small pieces of metalic material such as some cheap steel nuts and bolts or other small scrap metal to scatter around the area in the event "unwelcome visitors" come looking for it.

Be sure to burry the PVC pipe in the vertical position so as to present the smallest possible detection footprint to metal detectors.

Burrying containers in fence rows under steel fence posts directly over the container in the vertical position is a good tactic as well.

If you have the equipment, burrying the container very deep and out of the detection range of most metal detectors is the best bet.

Big Brother still has equipment that can detects very deep items if a special need is brought to their attention.

Another option is buying and water proofing a cement septic tank and burrying it in close proximity to your septic/drain field system. ;O)

Weaver said...

The septic tank idea is fantastic, these things have a large enough opening to crawl into and a little work with scrap wood will create a shelving unit that will work with the curved floor. As far as ammo cans and the spray on undercoating, I wouldn't. That stuff will make opening the cans a nightmare. If your willing to do a little extra work all you need to do is rough up the outside of the cans with scotchbrite pads and give them a few coats of good OD paint. Put the cans inside a tupperware tote and silicone the lid shut, don't forget to throw in something to absorbe any leftover moisture.
As far as burying, I agree if it's time to bury our ammo it's time to use it. But, it's also a good idea to have some ammo/weapons stashed in various locations OFF your property. We have to think several steps ahead of the thugs so we need to think "resupply" when preparing our supply.

Kristophr said...

If you must bury ( a bad idea, IMO ),
use PVC pipes, underground rated, and throw a dessicant pack in before gluing the caps on.

Use a post hole digger and a small shovel to bury it vertically.

Either fake a survey witness mark by driving a metal rod into the ground above it to mask from metal detectors ( gps the location dummy ) ... or bury where it won't be searched for ( under the headstone of an anti gun politician seems apropo to me ... ).

Be sure to pack a tarp to carry off the leftover dirt and rocks from the post hole digger.

Happy D said...

Asphalt and Tar have worked well but are messy. Also you should know the corrosive properties of the soil you are up against. Most likely not a concern where you are, but here in Utah it can be a major problem. It will be a problem near major industrial sites Mines and such.

Johnny said...

A useful trick is to wrap the buried item in a plastic sack with a cord tied round the top, then put this inside another plastic sack with cord running out. When you dig whatever it is up, the inner plastic sack sliding against the outer sack makes it more likely you can pull the item out of the ground using the cord without having to dig it out completely.

Anonymous said...

If I remember the black pipe, abs, is much better and more durable than pvc, mobile home parts dealers should have it. Oldfart had it right, I r 1 2.

Bruce Krafft said...

An article in Backwoods Home Magazine covered this recently.

For those of you not familiar with it, BHM has a lot of good info on living off the grid, self-sufficiency and country living in general.

Bury a gun and ammo for 15 years
(and be assured everything still works when you dig it up)

"Back in the early 1990s the outlook for the nation in general and gun owners in particular seemed rather grim to many people. A few years earlier in 1986, Congress had banned civilians from owning newly manufactured machine guns. There was ever more strident talk of banning semi-automatic weapons or so called assault weapons. Many of us regarded a semi-automatic rifle as the foundation of a home defense battery. Many of us believed that more laws banning ever more types of guns were imminent. About that time I acquired a Ruger Ranch Rifle through a private sale. I decided to stash it away in a safe place just in case my worst fear was to materialize, another gun ban." ...

doubletrouble said...

Howzabout just shooting the bastards that come searching for your ammo?

Just a thought...

Dakota said...

I live in S D and burying is an option, however have you ever tried to dig in January here..... good luck. If you bury where the ground freezes plan on only digging deep enough to hit the end and then emptying it in place. I guess you could put a PVC inside another one so it would slip out also. This would give you a moisture barrier. If you are worried about having it discovered then you haven't chosen your site very well. Don't be obvious ... "they" are going to be pretty busy so they will not be looking very much unless you garden on obvious places like you 30 X 50 foot back yard.

I like honey barrels the whole top comes off and they hold a lot of gear. I paint the outside with tar and then use plastic sheeting over the top to give access to the top lid and opening mechanism. You could also use grease soaked rags.... messy but it works.

Phelps said...

Also assume that if this is for a totalitarian storage scenario, the sort of MAD technology used to detect subs from the air could be retasked to look for ammo dumps from the air. Nuts and bolts will still land them on your property, which is enough to have them at least shoot your dog. A rusted out truck carcass, though, is a nice, air-visible decoy.

Anonymous said...

To add to Johnny's comment, also coating any metal containers with a rustproof coating and a spray on pickup bed liner will prevent any possibility of corrosion.

Brock Townsend said...

Another comment. I have a friend who started when Clinton came into power, and now has approximately 50K rounds/etcetera underground. He initially started with small metal items, but realized these would be differentiated easily from a a cache, so he then buried large, pre-cut lengths of concrete re-enforced rods all over the area which is quite remote, also.

Anonymous said...

The Very Best primer money can buy:

Sherwin-Williams industrial Zinc primer($120/gal), followed up with krylon spray on bed liner(not undercoat). But I like Oldfart's suggestion better.

Or for a thousand year ammo capsule ---- go to your nearest industrial polyethylene supplier and have them heat fuse an end cap and a poly/brass coupler (with a screw on cap) to a length of poly pipe. You can get poly pipe up to 2 feet in diameter and 4" thick at most of those suppliers. But a brass/poly coupler that size would be cost prohibitive. --- try 6 inch or so. And don't forget the oxy-absorbers and dry nitrogen purge prior to sealing.

Brock Townsend said...

"Community Lumber sells the pre-cut lengths of concrete re-enforced rods in bundles of 20 in lengths
of 18 inches. They are used for pinning down landscape timbers and for 'other' purposes.
Pennies 'add' to the confusion. Random is better in my opinion."

Johnny D. said...

"Blogger doubletrouble said...

Howzabout just shooting the bastards that come searching for your ammo?

Just a thought..."

Well, assuming you're going to defend the fixed position that is your home, and assuming a worst case scenario, after the 20-40 rounds you send towards the bad guys when they conduct a no-knock at 3am, you'll be captured or killed and that big stockpile of ammo you have in your basement or safe will be confiscated and possibly destroyed. So much for thousands of rounds of ammo for when the SHTF. Besides that being an utter waste of ammo, time, and money, it's also not very "big-picture". That is lots and lots of ammo that could be put to good use elsewhere.

A better alternative would be to have in your house 2 or 3 hundred rounds of ammo for your primary rifle(s) and handgun(s) (per family member) and store the rest in several places:
1) Cache it, maybe by burying it, and disclose the location to your group of trusted buddies, in case they need to get to it,
2) Cache it in a different place that only you know about so that if your buddies give up the site location on your communal stash you will still have one or more cache sites from which to resupply before getting the hell out of dodge (because your buddy probably also gave you up).

Any criticisms?

Gun Monkey said...

If you are going to have a personal cashe in the event that your "buddy" sold you out and you just havent been hauled in yet.
Build one or two "Get out of town" Caches which include Cash, a couple changes of clothes, a Pistol with ammo, a backpack, and a way of changing your appearance, hairdye, razors, glasses ect.

Also have several routes and planned objectives.

Johnny D. said...

Blogger Gun Monkey said...

If you are going to have a personal cashe in the event that your "buddy" sold you out and you just havent been hauled in yet.
Build one or two "Get out of town" Caches which include Cash, a couple changes of clothes, a Pistol with ammo, a backpack, and a way of changing your appearance, hairdye, razors, glasses ect.

Also have several routes and planned objectives.

August 17, 2009 11:04 AM

Which brings us back somewhat to the original post - how to store this stuff so it's sealed. Will these things work if its sealed in a large enough PVC pipe?

Anonymous said...

Good suggestions, Gun Monkey. If you are caching to provide your own supply, you will need to do it throughout your expected A.O.

A while back Mike posted a bit about the Vietcong method of resupply by means of caches, which included not just guns and ammo (which too many guys fixate on), but the far less sexy, but oh so essential food, cooking gear and heat tabs, medical supplies, boots, cloths, etc.

Cache complete sets of low cost cloths, gear, food, etc. along with ammo for your expected rifle, and if you can, cache a spare rifle, even if its an old surplus piece with ammo. And have enough of those caches that you can move from one part of your AO to another and still resupply, or along an escape route, and if any one of them is discovered, it's not the end of the world.

And while at it, why not build a few "spider holes" or small underground hideouts for YOU. Maybe something like this so you have some overhead cover/insulation:
_ _______________________
\ \
\ \________
\ I

Especially if you are in rural areas, how else will you hide from FLIR?

You may have to "cache" yourself in a hole for a few days, so build a few hidyholes in advance. Cover them up, but not too deep, so you can get in one fast if needed, and pull in a prepositioned cammo netting/gillie suit style plug behind you. You will need either dirt overhead or something else that will defeat FLIR. Especially if all you have is a spider hole!

What works best for that? For those who expect to be in rural areas, that is the greatest threat - being detected from the air by infrared and having a Predator drone ruin your day or night.

Anonymous said...

Damn blogger screwed up my purty drawing! I was trying to draw a slanted spider hole that goes down at a 45 degree angle to the right a few feet and then goes horizontal, providing a place to lay down/sit/curl up with overhead dirt cover. You could stuff it with leaves, pine boughs, grass, etc. and be all snug, just like a ground squirrel. Picture a rabbit den. Wrap yourself in a poncho, use a plug of whatever debris is at hand, and you could stay fairly warm and dry. Just leave enough holes for air!

Anonymous said...

Doubletrouble said,

"Howzabout just shooting the bastards that come searching for your ammo?

Just a thought..."

Here's my answer:

1) Howzabout not having a toe-to-toe battle with the JBTs when they have you outnumbered, outgunned, outarmored and outpositioned - not to mention that you're likely to be burdened (in the combat sense) with several non-combatants about whom you care deeply)? Give up whatever you have on paper at your homestead, and survive - along with your family.

2) Howzabout reserves? Anyone in a fight - personal, group, national or on the scale of coalitions of nations has them - just in case your plan doesn't survive contact with the enemy (as is almost ALWAYS the case).

3) Howzabout letting the JBTs KNOW that there are caches all over the country - arms, ammo, spare parts, food, clothing, comm gear, etc., etc. The more they think is out there, the more uncertainty there will be on THEIR side. Such uncertainty can and often does lead to paralysis - which is what we want (i.e. we DON'T want an all-out conflict that begins with seizures of guns, etc. and the killing, maiming and/or jailing of hundreds of thousands (or more) of our fellow patriots.

4) Howzabout more thinking with the big head, and less bravado emmanating from the small one?

Just a thought....

Oh, and to stay on topic, here's my solution:

You need multiple layers of defense - defense against moisture and oxygen, the handmaidens of our main enemy...RUST.

Coat metal parts in EEZOX, then put them in a barrier bag (heavy plastic, coated with anti-corrosion inhibitors. Put the bag in a container that is water-tight (like ABS), and make sure that it contains a dessicant, oxygen absorber or (preferably) both (but they should be separated from each other). Make sure that the ABS container is properly sealed against moisture - and for ease of retrieval, put one inside another (which also increases strength).

Burial instructions: see above - many good suggestions. I like a one expects it, and it reeks of Terminator II. :>)

Brock Townsend said...

Firearms Caching

Kristophr said...

Anon 2:43:

I have a better idea.

If you plan to resist, instead of burying shit, have a safehouse organized and stock it.

When the JBTs arrive, they should find an empty house.

Anonymous said...

You definitely want PVC (schedule 40 or better) rather than ABS.

Between the non-permeable slippery outer and inner layers, ABS pipe wall is porous (and weak). PVC pipe is a completely different animal.

Here are some useful links:

Anonymous said...

I really appreciate all of the input, resource material and suggestions. Although I hope me and mine will be in a better position when tshtf but, with this economy, who knows? Got to plan for every possibility as best I can with the financial resources available like everyone else. Thanks again.


wall coating said...

Put the cans inside a tupperware tote and silicone the lid shut, don't forget to throw in something to absorbe any leftover moisture.