Tuesday, April 30, 2013

Local Jewish newspaper wants 'conversation' about guns; history not invited

"The uncompromising pro-armed citizenry stance of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) is the only logically defensible--or morally defensible--product of any accurate reading of history."
You know, I wonder what this mother would say to them if she and her baby were still alive, that is. Here is my comment there, which I doubt makes it past the moderator:
There is an iconic photograph of a Nazi soldier shooting a Jewish mother holding her baby (easily found at the top of my blog Sipsey Street Irregulars at the link below), and I wonder what she would have to say about the various efforts to disarm the American citizenry. Or the Bielski brothers, for that matter. They knew quite directly what happens when there is a government monopoly of violence. They also could tell you how foolish it is to count on unchecked government to secure anything for you, whether it is your liberty, your property or your lives.
The Jews of the Wiemar Republic were quite comfortable with that government's gun registration laws until the Nazis took over -- legally -- and began using those registration lists to disarm their opponents. Do you think there is some sort of house rule that forbids tyranny from coming to America? To believe so is to whistle past the mass graves of history.
You are quite correct that there are those of us who are as uncompromising as a brick wall (although putting the NRA in that class merely demonstrates your ignorance of the legislative history of 80 years of gun control laws in this country -- Indeed, the NRA is the least of your worries as you proceed down the slippery slope of progressive citizen disarmament).
It has always seemed the twin apices of ignorance and irony that people who advocate citizen disarmament in this country do so in the delusion that this will "stop the carnage" of common criminals and lunatics who use firearms to work their evil will upon people. It is ignorant because you believe that you can accomplish that goal without starting a new American civil war with the likes of us "bitter clingers" and ironic because starting said civil war seems an odd way to "stop the carnage."
For we, if not you, have internalized the true lesson of the Holocaust and by extension the founding of the state of Israel. As my good friend Aaron Zelman once observed: "If every Jewish and anti-Nazi family in Germany had possessed a Mauser rifle, twenty rounds of ammunition AND THE WILL TO USE IT, Adolf Hitler would be a footnote in the history of the Wiemar Republic."
The Mauser rifle, I might add, was the military pattern "assault weapon" of its day.
The difference between you citizen disarmament advocates and us well-armed, well-trained "bitter clingers" is that when we say, "Never again!" we mean it -- and we have the means to make it stick.
Mike Vanderboegh


Tom Stedham said...

"Iconic" photograph? Hmmm... I don't know about that.
The UNEDITED version is online. I invite everyone to view it, and make up their own mind.
"Executing Jewish woman with baby"....
"Heroically providing cover fire..."


Anonymous said...

Looks like your comment made it onto their website Mike!

MamaLiberty said...

Well, they did post your comments, Mike. I'm glad for that.

Peter said...

Not only did your comment get posted, it's curently the first one.

Russel Harris said...

Meanwhile in Israel...driving home yesterday (45 mins) and all you could see was a long convoy of armoured cars, APCs and Hummers heading up north.

A Texan said...

I am Jewish, and a proud "bitter clinger."

My desire to obtain firearms and ammo commenced at an early age, when I first began to appreciate the lessons of the Shoah (by the way, to refer to the events of the 1940s as a "holocaust" actually treats the memory of the murdered poorly, as a "holocaust" in Jewish law and history is a burnt offering, i.e. a ritual sacrifice - and the people in this case were not a sacrifice but, rather, victims of mass murder or genocide. The term "Shoah" means "destruction" and is far more appropriate, though less well-known and -used).

I have watched a LOT of footage of the Shoah - literally hundreds of hours of films - and in all that I've viewed, I never saw any evidence of firearms in the cattle cars or the gas chambers. Neither have I read about any such thing. These people were defenseless, essentially victims waiting for an abuser of some kind to victimize them.

My first reaction upon watching some films at about age 10 or 11 was to ask my parents, "Why didn't they fight back? Why did they willingly walk to their deaths?" The answer I got was, essentially, they had no choice because the Germans were far more numerous and had the army and police to force the Jews to do this. I was not then, and am still not, satisfied with that answer. After all, they HAD to know (especially at a place like Babi Yar in the Ukraine, when the shootings of tens of thousands took several days) that they were going to die - what was there to lose, a few seconds or minutes of life?

I recently visited my mother in NJ, shortly after the CT school massacre. One of her friends, a very liberal Jew, started discussing this and (of course) made the remark that "no one should have guns like that, it should only be for the army or police." After a long and mostly fruitless attempt to convince her otherwise via logic, I turned to her and said, "Well, guess what: I will never surrender any of my guns. As a human being, I have every right to defend my life or those of my loved ones against all comers, no matter if they are dressed in street clothes or a uniform. As an American, I utterly refuse to give up on a critical part of my heritage, a part without which this country would never have won its independence. Finally, as a Jew who has known people who were prisoners during the Shoah and were lucky enough to survive, I absolutely WILL NOT surrender my weapons until such time as they are at a far higher temperature than my dead body." She was taken aback by this - but apparently she understood even as she disagreed. I reinforced it a bit by letting her know that I know literally dozens of Jews in NJ, NY, NH and TX that feel the same way, and that there is a national organization (JPFO) with tens of thousands of Jewish members that is as hard-line and well-armed as me. Suffice it to say that she got a bit of an education.

I absolutely cannot stand idiot Jews who pray and work for universal disarmament, ESPECIALLY those who have lost close relatives. I call them stupid to their face, and I honestly don't give a damn who objects or is offended - getting put into a camp or a gas chamber is a lot more offensive to me. Maybe when the Messiah comes and lions lay down with lambs, but not until then.

tom said...

I emailed back and forth with the author and he actually thanked me for pointing out that he was painting with a broad brush and if he thinks talking to the weiner wagon and gottlieb gang is talking to a wall, he should try to CSGV and get them to debate anything. Fellow was a lot more polite than Josh, Ladd, Sugarbaby, et al. He thanked me for giving him a perspective he hadn't seen. I still disagree with him but he was much more reasonable than any 202 area code scumbags that claim they want an open debate when it's the last thing they want. Just FYI. Not apologizing for them, but they actually, Levin and Cohen, had the nuts to actually engage in an email discourse with me in a polite fashion. Ladd and Josh, most especially, could learn a lesson or two on civil discourse from these people that did a hit piece on us in a Jewish St. Louis Paper. Surprised me when they were civil instead of combative.

Anonymous said...

Mike you are talking to a wall. The Left DOSE NOT CARE. They want the guns. ALL OF THEM and they want them NOW. The ones at the top do not give a tinkers damn how many die and the NEVER HAVE. You are wasteing your remaining life trying to sway your enemy with reason, They will never EVER hear you. The stooped ones belive that we will never fight. The rest belive that the war will be short and swift and the cops(or Jesus or Budda or the great googly moogly) will protect them. Like the Civil War 1861-1865 they think that "we will mop up all the blood with a hankerchief" The War is at our doorstep, Perhaps it is better that we prepare to defend our loved ones and ignore the ranting madness of the left. For in truth there is nothing left to say that they will hear. Our enemy is the Military Government In DC. The left are just the cowardly cheerleaders. Until we resolve to stand and be rid of the Federal Military Dictatorship, talk is useless.

Anonymous said...

They posted it, LOL. And Kurt like you rock as always.


Anonymous said...

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

I think I've learned enough from tyranny's bloody history to NOT repeat it. May the chains of history rest lightly on those who do not learn.

B Woodman

Anonymous said...


The fruits of multiculturalism and diversity continue to ripen.

Elliot said...

So far, your comment is there, 1 of 2. The second is critical, for different reasons.

Anonymous said...

Mike,here's my comment:

I happen to be Jewish myself,my forbears,so-called 'white Russians' or anti-communists, came here from Russia after that nation was violently overthrown by the communists.
I have studied history quite extensively along the lines of what occurs when one group of people decides that another group of people do not deserve to even breathe the same air as the former.
This,I believe,is the duty of Jewish people,for we all took an oath,much like the oath taken by servicemen and women in the United States,an oath that defines our principles and our core values.

That oath was "Never Again".

This was an oath we took after what happened to our people not only in Nazi Germany,but also in Communist Russia to Jewish people subjected to Stalin's post war purges.

This is an oath to defy the evil of genocide which we had perpetrated upon our people in the full sight of the world and which was only stopped by men with guns,whether it was the men of the US armed forces who pushed deep into Nazi occupied territory and discovered the true horror of the Nazi regime or whether it was brave Jewish partisans who stood up against horrific and overwhelming odds and yet -by force of arms- managed to save thousands of Jewish lives.

This is our oath as a people.

"Never again".

In light of history,what with the FACTS that are pointed out by organizations such as the JPFO,it is denial of such FACT to claim that those governments bent on perpetrating that which we vowed to never again tolerate -genocide- do not favor the total monopoly on the use of force granted them by weapons control laws.

I say "weapons control" because this hasn't always been about guns,and granted,it hasn't always been about mass genocide either,although such has had a fraternal relationship that is proven time and again in history.

Always it has been so that when one group of people wants total domination of the other,from the Scots occupied by England to the lower castes in Feudal Japan,they institute weapons laws that deny those they wish to subjugate to their will the lawful right to ownership of arms.

Along with that comes the necessary loss of the right to self defense,along with total dependency of those disenfranchised of these HUMAN RIGHTS on those who maintained theirs- which has,more then often enough,resulted in horrible and inhuman atrocity.

When Americans liberated the camps in occupied Europe,they came from a culture that not only allowed,but promoted self defense and the private ownership of arms.
It was this culture that was able to mount the offensive on the beaches of Normandy and this culture that was able to smash apart the evil Nazi regime which had,as a matter of historical FACT,adopted weapons laws that favored one class over those that class wished to dominate.

bloodyspartan said...

Death be Not Proud, Just permanent John Gunther.

Anonymous said...

My comment continued:

It was men with guns that came to the rescue of our people,men from a culture of respect of the human right to own the tools of self defense and the civil right and custom of self defense being both not only lawful but expected of a man.

We had to wait for these men because we allowed the Nazi's to dictate to us the helplessness of dependence on them for our defense.

We allowed the Nazi's to dictate to us that we did not have human rights,lest of all the right to arms and the right to self defense.

And as much as liberals want to deny the cause and effect relationship between weapons control laws and Nazi Germany's wholesale slaughter of our people,the FACT is that the weapons control laws put in place by the Wiemar Republic were first abused,and then INTENTIONALLY AMENDMENT TO GIVE THE NAZI'S POWER TO DISARM JEWS.

On November11,1938,the Nazi's amended that law to DIRECTLY abrogate JEWISH ownership of arms- not only firearms,but even knives and clubs.

"Jews (§ 5 of the First Regulations of the German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt 1, p. 1332) are prohibited from acquiring. Possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority."


The Nazi's did,in fact,use weapons control laws as part of the 'final solution' to their 'Jewish problem'.

They must have found these laws to be helpful in such,otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with them,because they already had gun registration and could deny anyone they pleased the lawful right of ownership of arms.

But no- they went further,directly denying -to we Jews- this right.

Those denying the utility of weapons control laws to the evil Nazi regime are flat out WRONG.

Perhaps,and this is just a guess,but perhaps this is why you do not want to include in your "national conversation",people like the NRA or the JPFO-

Because the FACTS speak louder then the hyperbole and exploitation of tragedy that you wish to abuse to enact your "gun control" "laws".

It is not without some extreme Orwellian twists of logic and history that anyone can arrive at the conclusion that "gun control" "laws" have not been a championed tool of tyrants.

Weapons control laws have ALWAYS been such,likely since the dawn of recorded human history.

And while not each and every example of such has always resulted in outright genocide or even lesser forms of tyranny,I challenge proponents of such law to name just one example where one group had the power to disarm another group in a society and total peace and harmony have been achieved via such.

Anonymous said...

and the last bit:

Not even in the best examples of modern democracies has the denial and abrogation of the human right to self defense resulted in such.

Both England and Australia are great examples of how while lawfully disarmed people may not be the victims of government gone wrong,their people are the victims of the backwards notion that crime should not be resisted by the private citizen,resulting in rates of property crime and crimes against the person that far outstrip any benefit perceived or loudly proclaimed by removing the right of their people to bear arms and use them is self defense.

For every over publicized act of evil perpetrated by lone gunmen,there are literally thousands of homeowners in England and Australia that have their homes invaded by thugs able to overpower them with brute force,thousands of women raped and beaten without having the ability -or the lawful right- to resist.

But of course,controlling the subject matter means ensuring that the victim-hood of those victimized by madmen with guns makes the headlines in national news,while the majority of the victims of weapons control laws suffer in silence,just as our people did before we were rescued by a culture of strong men and women who braved their own demise to do so.

As for myself,I am a proud Jew and a member of the Three Percent.

I will stand with those who embrace the culture of individual responsibility and unalienable human rights against those that thought it wise to "just give the Nazi's one more thing" in the hopes that we might be left alone.

I take pride in the fact that armed Jews stood against the Nazi's at Warsaw.

I take pride in the fact that armed Jews took up the banner of the Partisan and fought for their survival rather then begging for it from the evil Nazi's.

I do not have any pride in the victims of the holocaust who meekly walked to their doom in the ovens.

Only deep,wrenching sorrow,that people can be so naive as to accept edicts from government that disarm them and deny them their unalienable human rights to the degree that it gets to that point.

And above all,I take my oath "Never Again" personally.

I ask that you recognize your mistakes and do the same.

tom said...

Technically the Wiemar Republic law of 1928 put into effect a registry which was intended to quell the brownshirt vs communist fighting. In the end, it gave the Nazi administration a list of all registered firearms, and they took them from the people they wanted helpless. 38 Law built and was executed, very heavily, on the 28 Wiemar registration laws. People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts, as I pointed out to the CEO and Editor of the Jewish paper. Honestly, they didn't seem to be blowing smoke when I said I come from a Jewish Military Family and to demean patriots and rely on CSGV propoganda about made me hurl, after my first instinct is people need noses broken.

I don't think I am making a mistake when I point out to editors that quote 202 area code antis that maybe they could look at both sides because more than half the US disagrees with them, even in the Jewish community. My Jewish side flew gunships and were Rangers and SOG in VietNam that weren't field surgeons. And they are not giving up their guns, ever.

I don't know if I changed a mind, but I did put it in their minds they were copy and pasting biased sources. They sure like that when people do that with the protocols, right? I pointed that out. Can't have it both ways. You want an open discussion, have one. You want to write hit pieces on myself and friends, sorry, you are off the non-partisan teams...

Anonymous said...

Please - Weimar Republic, not Wiemar...