Monday, August 29, 2011

Praxis: Russian use of rifle grenades in Chechnya.

Russian soldier takes a break in Second Chechen War. Note modern rifle grenades on rifles in background.

With a tip of the boonie hat to John P, this comes from MicroBalrog: "The Mountain Echo – Small Arms in Mountainous Areas."

In Transdnistria and Karabakh, in 1992, a simple device was introduced that enabled using hand-grenades like Western rifle grenades. An F-1 grenade, fired from behind cover to a range of up to 80 meters, is far more effective than a VOG, which makes it extremely relevant in close-range combat.

The Russian F-1 hand grenade was first introduced in World War II and has been used in combat since all over the world. It is interesting that the Russians resorted to issuing adaptors of the US type (seen below) to project F-1s at greater distance.


J. Croft said...

No reason why they can't be stamped out of sheet metal or even aluminum siding. Just need the appropriate pattern, welder... uh, practice dummy hand grenades.

And if you can stick a grenade in the adapter....

Anonymous said...

Somebody asked me about the potential use of rifle grenades on the part of the FreFor some years back. Answer then was no. There would need be too much scrounging for the getting of stuff, at the opportunity cost of other things. Plus, some installation of sights on US rifles, is helpful if accuracy is wanted from those launchers. Grenade sights are out there, the sights themselves are cheap enough. Installation of them... well, jigs for installation would be be extra and harder to find. If grenade launching sights are not on the rifles, things get harder right away.

Then there is that training factor, it is nice to practice some, sort of like Army draftees were able to practice some with these things, on the whole, maybe not much. I wonder if folks will get the time for putting inert projos on target, and I wonder if inert things fly like the heavier real projos. If they don't, that would make the G-man's practice time much less worthwhile. If done as support, for real, in a fight, the prospective grenadier's lack of good training with real projos, might be at the expense of those who might be in dire need of his accurate and effective support. The whole fiasco might be another reprint of the Vandenberg novel.

My answer to this 70-yo concept, as done by the G-man, is still no. No, and not worth the trouble to pursue.

If I was to wake up next to an M79 or M203 and if rounds for them were available... then that is a whole different argument. The concept of training the potential grenadier, would still apply.

I'd not waste time trying to adapt the Army's WW2 and later grenade launching doctrine for use by FreFor people. Calibrated and GL-sighted rifles aren't out there currently. Access to the old stuff is not there. Training with inerts invites arguments as to which projos will land where. The idea of being able to launch granades off of a carbine or rifle is attractive in retrospect but I am just are not there, and won't be. Peoples' time could be spent better than digging down that bunnyhole.

I still do appreciate the fact that Mike brought up that old concept, on a weekend promised as Praxis stuff. Praxis things, are worthwhile to know. And somewhere in Alabama, there was a boxcar full of good stuff, well-distributed by now,and with stories to go with that.


Semper Fi, 0321 said...

When we transitioned from the M-79 to the M-203, lots of the guys were putting them in the dirt right out in front of us. The side mounted sights on the M-203 were a little hard to see, and it just didn't handle the way the M-79 did. Never shot a rifle grenade, but I do know for a fact, they all need to be practiced with or you can do more harm than good. Trying to shoot up through trees will put one right back in your lap or in a buddies position.

Dutchman6 said...


Opinions, like assholes, are ubiquitous. Here's mine, based on experience, not "stories about boxcars," in no particular order.

The "opportunity cost" of practicing with inert rifle grenades is not that great. Nor is training time onerous.

There are two ways to do it for a small militia unit, either as a day devoted to it as a fun way to train and compete at the same time, or as a component of a day at the range.

A. It is legal. You should do it because you can. The simple doing of it makes a point, both to our side and the other side -- one component of credible deterrence.

B. It is legal. By unconstitutional law and great expense most of us are barred from modern grenade slingers such as the M203. We are not barred from inert rifle grenades.

C. Improvised, illegal NON-INERT rifle grenades are not beyond the competence of any intelligent good old boy with access to a machine shop, if, as and when. Thus -- another component of credible deterrence -- legal practice with inerts is not merely simple fun (although it certainly is that) nor an intellectual exercise.

D. Rifle Grenadiering is not a science but an art. Sights were issued in the US army that had to be mounted on the side of the stock. They were more unpopular than bipods on a BAR and were quickly "lost.". The experienced RG operator -- after enough practice -- can use Kentucky windage to hit just about anything within range. I knew a Marine with experience in Santo Domingo and RVN who felt the same way after transitioning to an M-79 from RG's projected from an M-14. With both weapons, he said, "I never used the sights, I just practiced until I could hit what I wanted without thinking. Taking time to think on contact with the enemy can get you killed." Thus, experience is key. BTW, he also preferred the greater range and explosive power of the RG vs the 40mm.

E. To repeat: Art, much more than science, requires practice.

F. RG can be used as a projection method for more than inert projectiles, including signal flares, throwing ropes and commo lines across obstacles, etc.

G. Did I mention that it is legal?

H. Everyone that I know who has taken the time to learn RG has been glad for the experience. It opens a whole new possibility for the average rifleman on an unconventional battlefield.

There's more but I'm running out of time this morning.

Anonymous said...

Don't forget the Yugo SKS - available for around 2 bills, complete with NATO spec launcher and sights. Century has blanks for cheap.