Wednesday, February 17, 2010

“Choose this day whom you will serve.”: An Open Letter to American Law Enforcement.

“Choose this day whom you will serve.”: An Open Letter to American Law Enforcement.

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. -- William Butler Yeats, “The Second Coming.”

Gentlemen and ladies of American Law Enforcement,

There is a growing perception among many Americans that we are headed for one of those periodic moments in our history when our reactions to events will redefine who we are as a people, where we are going as a country and who gets to call the shots when we get there -- what George H.W. Bush called “that vision thing.” This is happening in the middle of unprecedented external and internal stresses on our social order, the results of which you see daily on the streets.

It is going to get worse.

Odds are, it is going to get MUCH worse before it gets better.

IF it gets better any time soon, which I doubt.

And so, ladies and gentlemen of American law enforcement, the prudent among you should be considering this question now, rather than later: “What am I going to do when we get to ‘much worse’?”

Consider first where we are.

The Justice Department's National Gang Intelligence Center estimated last year that there were over a million hard-core gang members in this country who were responsible for over 80% of the crimes in many communities. Other experts have suggested that when you add in the gangs’ “extended families” and wannabes the number is closer to between five and ten million. As unemployment has increased, their numbers have likewise swelled.

But the gangs, as bad as they are and as great a threat as they pose to public order, are nothing compared to the larger problem, and that is this.

Respect for duly constituted authority and social trust are essential ingredients of civilization. These elements represent the basic glue of society.

Respect for duly constituted authority is, as every cop knows, at an all-time low. There are two general reasons for this, one systemic and the other so personal that if you look yourselves honestly in the mirror you can see it.

Systemically, “duly constituted authority” derives its legitimacy from the founding documents of our country, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and from the Founders’ concepts of the rule of law. These have all been under attack for a hundred years or more by both corrupt political parties and their union and business familiars. The Constitution has become for some a joke and for others an inconvenient speed bump on the road to tyranny. As long as this degradation of the legitimacy of our political and legal system was perceived by only a narrow portion of the population, it was manageable in a societal sense. This is no longer true.

When a president and Congress robs one set of people to enrich their cronies, when they violate the settled rule of law regarding bankruptcy to stiff secured creditors in the case of General Motors while rewarding self-anointed unsecured creditors -- their political allies, the auto unions -- the rest of the population cannot fail but conclude that we are no longer under the rule of law, but the rule of men, which is to say, the law of the jungle. Or, put another way, they -- the “authorities” -- can do anything that the citizenry can’t or won’t stop them from doing. This is the societal Catch 22 we are now in (and have been for a while) that I call “Waco Rules.”

Other cases such as that of David Olofson, a veteran and marksmanship instructor and family man who was railroaded by the ATF on an automatic weapons charge when his semi-automatic AR-15 malfunctioned (and he was chosen for prosecution simply because the ATF did not care for his low opinion of them), have convinced many that a fair trial is no longer possible in federal court if an agency decides to “deal with” them. And if we are no longer guaranteed a fair trial in the federal court system, then if we are innocent and decide that we do not wish to play drop the soap with either the Aryan or Muslim Brotherhoods, our only guarantee is the right of an unfair gunfight when the ATF comes calling.

And remember that Olofson is merely one example of federal misadventure. There are many others, as there are plenty of similar cases in local and state jurisdictions. When the law-abiding rightfully no longer trust the law enforcers and begin to view them as a class of criminals merely acting under color of law, anarchy is not far away.

Yet, you will say, “don’t blame me, I enforce the law, I don’t make it.” True, but insufficient as an excuse, and here we get down to that look in the mirror.

My friend, fellow gun rights blogger and National Examiner columnist David Codrea over at WaronGuns has a description for feral cops. He calls them the “Only Ones.” His daily blog is filled to overflowing with example of rogue cops, their partners who never rein them in and the prosecutors and judges who find reasons to go easy on even the most heinous of criminals with badges. You know who I’m talking about. If you say there are none of these currently operating or in the making within your department then you are either lying or uninterested in seeing the truth, which amounts to the same thing.

Everyone knows what happens to honest cops who “rat out” their uniformed criminal associates. They are hounded, despised, disciplined and shunned -- and that’s on a good day. Can you blame many of us who pay attention to such law enforcement corruption for concluding that you may merely be a member of an “official gang” as opposed to a freelance one? Such dereliction of duty begs the question: If your excuse is that you don’t make the law, you just enforce it, and then you don’t enforce it upon yourselves, why should we be paying tax dollars to support “official” law breaking?

There is another image that many of you can see in the mirror if you choose to take an honest look -- that of tax collector and nanny state bully boy. Yes, we know, you didn’t make the laws, some liberal puke with a control fetish did. But when you write speeding tickets for 3 miles over the limit because you’ve been told to write “x amount” of dollar value, or when you pull people over for “seatbelt violations” at random roadblocks and then ransack their cars without probable cause, can you understand how such behavior eats away like acid on your reputation -- individually and collectively -- as servants of the citizenry? What part of “to protect and serve” does that represent?

But worse than all that is the militarization of the police -- in equipment, tactics and, worst of all, attitude -- and the federalization of all law enforcement over the past forty years, but especially in the last ten. There were, last time I checked a few years ago, something like 750,000 full time state, city, university and college, metropolitan and non-metropolitan county, and other law enforcement officers in the United States. Add to that another 150,000 or so full time law enforcement personnel working for the federal government. With the growth of new agencies like the TSA during the “war on terror” (who, because of political correctness can’t seem to figure out who the real “terrorists” are so they merely oppress the rest of us in order to be “fair”) that number has certainly risen.

In any case, there are hardly enough Feds to work the administration’s will upon a nation so vast and a people so numerous, so, much thought and effort has gone into suborning and subverting local and state law enforcement for federal purposes -- “Joint Task Forces” and “fusion centers” being two principal ways. Yet, as the Founders quite clearly understood, it is one of the duties of local law enforcement, especially the county sheriffs, to interpose themselves between the federal government and the people of their jurisdictions when the federal government becomes oppressive.

Now, however, local law enforcement is looked upon by federal agents as force multipliers and willing stooges -- “local yokels” in their parlance. And as a mark of how successful their campaign has been, many local law enforcement officers agree and happily lick the boots that kick them.

A recent case in point. Two county sheriff’s deputies showed up at the doorstep of a man out west who had expressed his contempt for Nancy Pelosi and and other federal politicians in letters and emails. These deputies, saying that the FBI had sent them, interrogated the man, threatened him “with Leavenworth” and engaged in intimidation of political speech. These local cops, having no jurisdiction to do anything of the sort, would have been laughed off of my porch here in Alabama and told to bugger off and return with real federal cops, if that was in fact their intention. Too often these days, when the federal man says “frog” many of you merely ask “how high?”

Of course, if this intimidation had back-fired on the locals in any way, the Fibbies would have been the first to disavow them, leaving them hanging out in the legal laundry to dry. So when y’all are looking in that mirror, ask yourselves how truly stupid you actually are when it comes to enforcing an agenda and not the law just because the Feds ask you to.

Because here’s the essential thing: you, ALL OF YOU, took an oath to, among other things, “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” You swore that, the overwhelming majority of you, to God. Did you think that oath had a shelf life? Do you think that now that you have by your reckoning faithfully upheld that oath for, say, twenty years now that tomorrow it is okay to forget it? You swore, whether you realized it at the time or not, an OATH, before GOD, and it was a LIFETIME oath.

While you are looking in the mirror, evaluate your career based upon that oath. It was not to a man, or an administration, or a political party but to an idea -- the idea of ordered liberty as codified in the Constitution of the United States of America. So ask yourself, did you or did you not intend to faithfully uphold that oath? Because the answer to that question is going to become very important very quickly as this politically divided and morally fractured society continues to spin out of control.

To quote Joshua, “Choose this day whom you will serve.”

Katrina showed us many things. It showed that in a disaster many cops will look to their families and not the public duty, leaving their fellow law enforcement officers with an even greater burden. It showed us that cops can be opportunistic criminals as well, partaking in looting with as much energy as professional criminals. It also showed us that the police no longer trust the law-abiding citizen with arms, depriving them of their only means of self-defense once the cops have moved on, thus leaving them to the tender mercies of robbers, rapists and murderers.

It is perhaps dangerous to make too large of a generalization, for there are many rural jurisdictions where this does not apply, but the fact of the matter is that by and large, the police no longer trust the people they are supposed to protect, and they especially do not trust an armed citizen, even if he represents no danger to the cop. This is standing the oath on its head. The people do not exist to serve the servant, but rather the other way around.

When a policeman pulls over a driver whose computer record shows not only the driver’s license of the vehicle’s owner, but the fact that they have a concealed carry permit, it is too often SOP for the cop to approach the vehicle, gun drawn, order the man or woman from the car, put them on their knees and cuff them before anything else transpires. These are not the acts of public servants but rather of an occupying army. And with each breach of trust, the glue holding society together is further weakened. For the more you distrust us, the more we are reminded to distrust you.

It is important to remember, Mr. and Ms. Law Enforcement Officer, that you need us, the law-abiding armed citizenry, one hell of a lot more than we need you. Just ask any criminal. Who is it that they fear most? The encounter with a policeman or a would-be victim who turns out to be armed? I tell you this uncomfortable truth and I hope you have the honesty to admit it -- the criminals of this country are far more scared of the armed citizenry than they are of the police.

It is not the fear of the patrol car that inhibits criminal behavior the most, but rather the prospect of screwing up and getting his brains blown out by a citizen in righteous self defense. And so, when you participate in citizen disarmament efforts, whether gun seizures like Katrina, or merely identifying otherwise friendly peaceable folks as “the enemy” just because they are armed, you are alienating your most valuable friends and empowering your most vicious enemies. Not to mention the fact that you are violating that sacred oath you took.

So ponder that deteriorating social trust that holds civilizations together, and then ponder this: the worst is yet to come.

What will happen when we are faced, God forbid, with some dislocating national disaster -- natural or man-made -- that makes Katrina look like a kindergarten playground? Now, even if you intend to run off like some New Orleans policemen did, to see to the safety of their families rather than keep order in the city, you are still going to need the cooperation of the armed citizenry in your home neighborhood to protect your family.

You -- ALL of you -- law enforcement officers, will then need us, the armed citizenry -- ALL of us willing and competent to muster -- to defend public order against the tide of chaos represented by five or ten million gang members and the tens of millions of panicked unprepared refugees or opportunistic criminals left unrestrained by a breakdown.

Do you seriously think that federal police, all 150,000 of them, will actually help you in that event, beyond issuing orders that they will not be personally endangered with carrying out?

You will then be on your own, and you will have us. At least those of you will who have the sense to plan now to make that happen in the event.

You might start by remembering your oaths, by beginning to trust us, by refusing to engage in petty harrassments of CCW permit holders and by strengthening your department’s auxiliary program (or starting one if you do not have one).

But first and foremost you must quit looking at and treating the law-abiding armed citizenry of the United States as the enemy. For if you don’t, we certainly will be.

Convince us by your actions that you are no better than the gangs who commit crimes without uniforms and we will treat you similarly. And there ain’t nearly enough of you to shove us around in a real national emergency.

Remember, Americans are nothing if not a practical people. We're predisposed to help and support you. Please, take our hand when it is offered, BEFORE it is needed.


Mike Vanderboegh
The alleged leader of a merry band of Three Percenters
PO Box 926
Pinson, AL 35126


Anonymous said...

Look up "Bonus Army"

chris horton said...

I have always enjoyed your writtings,and have especially enjoyed the oppurtunity to get to know you a little. And I am still here.

This is by far one of the best posts you have put up in some time.
Thanks Bro!


Kansas Scout said...

Good points. Maybe too many picky little complaints but the big ones were on mark.
We often wonder.."are the police on our side".
I agree it's time they tipped their hand.

Anonymous said...

Great article.

I think the current crop of law enforcement officers(federal, state, county, or city) will follow any order to keep their badge and pension.

I still believe that part of what happened at Waco was an experiment to see how far law enforement, and the military, will go and to gauge the reaction of the public.

Unknown said...

I am an officer of the law.

I serve the people of my community and of the United States.

I am accountable for all my actions; I must be an example to those whom I serve so that they are inspired to reverence for the rule of law.

I am entrusted with the power, granted by the people, to deprive people suspected of violations of the law of their freedom. I must use this power with the utmost discretion.

I must remain morally grounded, ethically exemplary and mentally and physically strong.

I must never use force where unjustified.

I must protect the weak from predators and strive to ensure that the rule of law is tempered with the spirit of the law.

I serve as the fulcrum of justice, representing the people to the government they have elected and the government to the people.

I must balance the legitimate rights of the individual with the necessary power of government.

I must never betray the trust granted me.

ebd10 said...

I sincerely hope this works. Unfortunately, young cops are no longer trained to be Peace Officers. Suspicion of the general public is endemic to the profession, starting with Day 1.

Anonymous said...

Couldn't have said it better myself. Hope this goes viral.

Doc Enigma said...

+1!! Good post, Mike! Hope they read it and take it to heart!

Nothing'd be better than our LEO's across the country honoring their Oath and seeing the armed citizen as an ally.


shiloh1862 said...

Very well written Mike. Not a thing I can disagree with. Let us pray that this effort to reach out is successful.


Ahab said...

Think they'll hear you? I seriously have my doubts. Twice in my lifetime I witnessed an armed citizen coming to the aid of a police officer under the gun of real criminals. I was unarmed in both instances. Not anymore! In both cases, the armed good Samaritan was charged with a crime after the besieged officer had been rescued. In both cases the charges were dropped when the truth came out. I don't know, at this time, whether I'd aid an officer who had gotten himself into a life threatening situation and was overmatched. I probably will if I'm that officer's only chance; but, I tell you now, I'd hesitate. You're absolutely right to state that LEOs need the armed citizenry more than we need them should something cataclysmic occur. I sincerely wish they understood this truth.

Unknown said...

One more thing:

Having spent more than three decades in law enforcement at municipal, county, state and federal levels, I have seen the underbelly of what I call "The Big Blue Beast".

Let me be clear. THERE IS A REAL PROBLEM.

Mike is correct that this is the time for cops to choose between the people they are supposed to serve and their "paymasters".

The position they are in is, in a nutshell, as follows:

Cops are generally hired at age 21. They are indoctrinated by the law enforcement academies they attend. Like the US Marine Corps, the academies take the raw material and create a mindset that influences the cop pretty much for life.

This, of course is a problem when the academy creates little jack booted thugs. The academies do not teach the "boots" to think. The approach is a "one size fits all" approach to law enforcement.

I call this the "80% rule" wherein the conditioned response inculcated into the young mush heads works about 80% of the time. The conditioning is intended (or at least was originally intended) to keep the cop alive until he reached a level where he could think.

The original assumption was that the polishing of the cop was to be left to the agency that employed the cop. Unfortunately that has not worked out. Instead, we, the citizens, are faced with automatons who will do as they are told for the most part. Again, probably 80% of cops fit into this category.

They are dependent on their pay checks, they have car payments, mortgages and kids to feed.

That puts even the intelligent ones (20%) in a bind.

In this bind, these 20%ers, figure that they will go along to keep the pay checks coming in as long as they are not tasked with something that bumps up against their moral compass. If they are faced with such a dilemma, they will try a variety of maneuvers to leave themselves some wiggle room; thereby saving their jobs and keeping the checks coming.

I do not defend or condone this state of affairs. I only point it out to help us understand it and perhaps, to begin discussion about how to approach the problem.

I suspect the demographics of the readers of Sipsey Street Irregulars is older, more experienced and frustrated with the things the way they are. We are "cocked and locked" and waiting for things to get "bad enough" for the scenarios Mike has put to paper to unfold.

We have our own lives and families. We all make calculations on a daily basis as to the unfolding of events. We all want to do something but the question is: When?

When is enough enough?

I suspect it will be when the next Waco or Ruby Ridge occurs. I hope enough of us have the courage to step up.

Anonymous said...

There is just no doubt about it Mike.

You have a gift for plain speaking that is eloquent.

I just with that EVERY LEO would read it.

Dan said...

And thank you, Walter. I hope you can reach more in the LE community and expand that 20%! Your post at 10:59 should be part of the LE Oath, if it isn't already.
I don't know where in the country you live, and I hope I didn't offend w/ my obvservations re:unions, but here in MA, every local I've come across is Union first and foremost. The State Troopers in MA are extremely professional, in my experience, and I think I'd prefer to deal with them than my local PD.
I hope we can all meet someday under favorable circumstances.
But, if conditions are poor, I hope we can stand shoulder to shoulder and preserve our Republic.

Anonymous said...

Spot-on, Mike.

This is were the Oath Keepers can play such an important role with outreach efforts.

De Oppresso Liber


chinasyndrome said...

Damn, I believe that may have been best post yet.And all so true.

MikeH. said...

The government is throwing military service personnel under the bus because a wanted terrorist got a fat lip while being apprehended. The government is ordering military personnel to follow unreasonable rules of engagement in combat areas. Keep screwing with the military and there's a pretty fair chance a lot of them will turn a deaf ear if ordered up to enforce martial law here at home.

Could be a very long wait for backup to arrive.

MamaLiberty said...

I intend to post this as an external article at my own website. I'll post that sample and link to every one of the forums and blogs where I participate. I know quite a few in "law enforcement" who belong to those forums.

If everyone else here did the same... quite a few of our LEO brethren would see this article. If you live in a place with far more LEOs than peace officers, you might even print it off and give copies to all of them.

Just an idea.

Eddie Gilbert said...

I'm a sworn peace officer.

I'm also an Oath Keeper.

I get it.


Eric said...

Mike, This letter is starting to go viral on Facebook

Glen said...

This was FABULOUS, I will link to it on my blog, thank for writing it and saying what I feel, so eloquently.

Anonymous said...

Absolutely awesome article!

Stephen said...

JPFO picked it up:

Anonymous said...

"[W]hen you participate in citizen disarmament efforts, whether gun seizures like Katrina, or merely identifying otherwise friendly peaceable folks as 'the enemy' just because they are armed, you are alienating your most valuable friends and empowering your most vicious enemies." MVB

This sums the problem up neatly.


Crustyrusty said...

Up on my FB, and soon to be on the blog, although I don't know how viral it can get on my little blog LOL...

straightarrow said...

Mike, you are an optimist. I no longer believe that law enforcement personnel can be reached through moral and ethical arguments. I hope you are right and I am wrong, but as things now stand, I am impatient for them to overplay their hands to such a degree that we can engage and defeat them because I really believe they have proven themselves to be the enemies of liberty and free men.

I wish it weren't so. But I have to say in forty years they have turned me from an avid supporter into an idealogical enemy and quite possibly under certain circumstances a deadly one.

And yes, I realize the intensity of my reaction to them is due the bitterness one experiences when he has been betrayed by those he formerly trusted. The bitterness is justified, the betrayal was not.

jon said...

well said, and i don't mind waiting for absolved for however long it took to get this down first!

Spitnyri said...

Long past due and desparately needed to be discussed honestly and openly.
Excellent Topic.

Defiant III said...

WELL said Mike. I am so glad and proud to see you have awakened to smell the stench of America's "Law Enforcement coffee".

Law enforcement officers who violate their oath and our God given natural born freedoms and liberties are NOT just jack booted thugs.....they ARE STATE SPONSORED DOMESTIC TERRORISTS of the worst stripe. TRAITORS.

Defiant III

Walstro said...

This, unfortunately, is just so much "preach'n to the choir". The cops aint reading it.

Steve Fleischer said...

Great article.

Came across your blog on JFPO; very glad that I did.

Anonymous said...

A police officer with an M16 is not a police officer anymore. He's a combatant looking for an enemy.
Who becomes the enemy? The people.

Anonymous said...

I got to "gangs commit 80% of the crimes" and did a fact check. The source you cite does not make the statement you attribute to them. The Nat. Gang Threat Assessment for last year states the following in its summary statement: "Criminal gangs commit as much as 80 percent of the crime in many communities, according to law enforcement officials throughout the nation"

80% "in many communities" is not the same thing as "80% of the crimes." So already a disdain for facts in the first hundred or so words of your post.

I don't imagine this comment'll make it to the page though.

rexxhead said...

As much as I wish StraightArrow's opinion was just so much BS, I have to admit that it's actually much more akin to reality.

AvgJoe said...

The way it seems to me is cops see most all of the citizens as felons that haven't been arrested and convicted yet.

Anonymous said...

Well Mike, I sent this to a Deputy buddy of mine with the heading:

"To whomever this applies to."

He's smart enough to figure it out and will send it out.

For those who know someone in "law enforcement" or for those who are in "law enforcement" ... send it out.

Toastrider said...

Once again, I quote from Terry Pratchett's Night Watch:

Coppers were always outnumbered, so being a copper only worked when people let it work. If they refocused and realized you were just another standard idiot with a pennyworth of metal for a badge, you could end up as a smear on the pavement.

Anonymous said...

Oh yea ... and thanks Mike.

Anonymous said...

well said

Anonymous said...

Mike writes: "Systemically, "duly constituted authority" derives its legitimacy from the founding documents of our country, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and from the Founders' concepts of the rule of law."

No, it doesn't. The "majority might makes right" lie doesn't get any truer with repetition. It doesn't get any truer when you use the Wizard of Oz voice, with the flames shooting up behind the Lincoln throne. If you think Spooner has holes in his arguments, then please simply point them out.

Walter writes: "In this bind, these 20%ers, figure that they will go along to keep the pay checks coming in as long as they are not tasked with something that bumps up against their moral compass. If they are faced with such a dilemma, they will try a variety of maneuvers to leave themselves some wiggle room; thereby saving their jobs and keeping the checks coming."

I'm sure the concentration camp guards were glad they were cop instead of little people. They weren't actively oppressing, they were just looking out for number one's mortgage payments. If it wasn't them herding the victims into the "shower", it would be someone else; so they weren't personally to blame. The German experience shows that holders of some jobs have no moral compass to bump against.

"I suspect it will be when the next Waco or Ruby Ridge occurs."

What was wrong with the last ones? The last ones have less moral risk of error, because there's been time for the facts to work their way out. The grand jury has plenty of good information to operate with. Walter, are you organizing the prosecution effort?

ShadowPatriot said...

Amen and BRAVO! I hope that this gets sent out to every cop out there....not that it's likely to happen....but I can still hope. When the day comes that civilization turns into anarchy, and chaos reigns, we must turn to ourselves and our militias. For our militias will come out of the woodwork and make right what was once wrong. They will fight back against the oppressors and bring about the next American Revolution.

"The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I know not what course others may take, but as for me: give me Liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry

Sergeant Mac said...

I serve the same boss I've always served: the decent, non-aggressing people in my community.

And I always will.

I will step up to protect them from anyone who would initiate harm against them or their property.

....and I don't give a DAMN what letters that aggressor has before or after his name, or what clothes the SOB is wearing.

And, "anonymous", if you see me in public with an M-16 in my hands, it'll be because that's what's necessary, and I sure hope you'll pick up a weapon and come HELP me.

Anonymous said...

"I serve the same boss I've always served: the decent, non-aggressing people in my community."

You meant only "decent", not "non-aggressing", correct? For instance you wouldn't defend a non-aggressing drug dealer, a tax evader, a civilian carrying a gun at a school, someone who drives without a license tag or driver's license, someone who flagrantly remodels without a building permit, an illegal immigrant who is not on welfare, an army deserter? Would you have defended Jews in the 40's, blacks in the 60's, or Muslims and Mexican today?

Anonymous said...

Sgt. Mac, it might not apply to you personally, but generally speaking, the boys in black love to drag out the M16s and M4s with no provocation whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

I have lost ALL respect for LEOs and the so-called "justice" system in this country over the last 10 years. I would not Pi$$ on a cop if I found one on fire in the middle of an alley. While I realize that many (not sure about most anymore) are decent Americans. The fact that they've thus far failed to enforce the law against their fellow officers and, rather, stand by silent while they routinely perpetrate numerous crimes against the citizenry, has placed them squarely in the court of public contempt. For years I never questioned whether I'd use my weapon to help defend a policeperson should such a situation ever arise. I can tell you now, they would be f'd because, if I did anything, it would be to record the event for future viewing pleasure.

There are NOT any good cops. If there were, they would have and be turning in and bringing to justice the criminals in their midst. Since they don't, they're ALL BAD!


David said...

I am a Law enforcer now and was an armed citizen before (and still am). I uphold the oath I took as a police officer just like the one I took when I joined the Military. But like I have always believed, They can have my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands!

Musings from the Smartest Man in the World said...

Awesome, awesome letter. I wish we could make the required reading for every LEO in the country.

Anonymous said...

It may not have been your intent (I hope) but the plain fact of the language you used (CCL)would seem to indicate that you believe the only justified armed citizen is the one who has begged, paid and registered for the 'privilege' If this is a point you have made clear in prior posts then I apologize but it wasn't clear in this one.

Tvarisch said...

A young man I know was recently pulled over, cuffed, and made stand on the side of the road in the cold, without a jacket on, because the cops remembered him from high school and wanted to make him suffer a little. I wish this were either surprising or rare, but neither is the case. Cops are beyond salvation, because the corruption is institutionalized, and probably no more than a tenth of them are anything more than punks with guns.
Forget about the cops, we already know which side they're on, and the "good ones" will obediently do their duty regardless, which still puts them at odds with the principles of liberty when tyrants are giving the orders, so every man must resolve within his own mind to be prepared to protect himself and his family from these official gangsters.

EClark said...

Sgt. Mac, as an citizen that has not lost all faith in officers of the law, I would definately lend a hand to an officer. I have in the past, know that most officers will stick up for you in a situation like that. There are a few bad apples in any orginization, those few do NOT make up the whole barrel.

Anonymous said...

"Just ask any criminal. Who is it that they fear most? The encounter with a policeman or a would-be victim who turns out to be armed? I tell you this uncomfortable truth and I hope you have the honesty to admit it -- the criminals of this country are far more scared of the armed citizenry than they are of the police."

How many criminals did you interview to arrive at this proclamation? And how precisely did you go about distinguishing the criminals and the 'armed citizenry'? You know, given how frequently the 'armed citizenry' gets up to criminal mischief (often involving their failure to legally obtain and store their arms, but not limited to that, of course--they also frequently shoot their spouses and family members).

Vatic Master said...

EClark, you might want to talk to the relatives of all the unarmed "citizens" killed by these really nice cops who use a taser to kill innocent people who were no threat to anyone.

Police no longer use common sense in dealing on a situation by situation basis. They don't or won't assess the situation relative to risk, danger or weaponry available to someone.

I know a few good police and I hate that they have to take the heat for those who are psychos, but the true test is yet to come.

Its what they do when the chips are down and they have to decide whether to protect and defend the citizens against tyranny and that will tell the tale.

Bob Sosbee said...

In regards to the SOP of pulling a CCW permit owner over, cooperate and get the officer badge number and name. Don't forget to get the unit number too. As soon as you get your ticket, be nice, and write down the unit license, date and time. Then go down to the nice station and file a IA complaint about the officer claiming abuse, threatening with a gun (a traffic citation is not grounds for pulling a weapon), and intimidation. Demand compensation for the fear for your life. See if you can find a lawyer who will sue the department and the officer on contingency (offer most of the settlement as his or her fee, then step back and watch the fur fly!). Document it clearly!

Very quickly one of two things will happen: Either a brother officer will pull you over and harass you again which you will also document in loving detail (and report/sue), or the department will leave you alone because the legal bills will go through the roof.
This puts the cops themselves in financial jeopardy, which causes then to actually start thinking for a change. Very painful for many cops, they aren't trained to think.

It's evil...but effective. And a form of activist civil unrest that even the libs and cops can't complain about.
If they do, you can simply look stricken in the press interviews and say that "as a responsible CCW permit holder, you've been taught not to brandish a weapon and threaten people with harm, so clearly an officer of the law should know this as well, yes?"

Do your part to throw sand in the works of the statists and the thugs. Use their own system against them for fun and profit.

Anonymous said...

A lot of hot air in this one, but nevertheless contains some food for thought:

Just a couple days ago in this neck of the woods, four cops blew away a 54 year old in front of his house, a husband and father who was allegedly drunk, and allegedly pointed a handgun in their direction.

Although this particular case is, in my view, only borderline murderous chicken-shit bullshit, there's been plenty of other cases over the years where a staggering drunk guy 50 feet away is holding a knife, barely standing, fails to instantly comply with the order to drop it, and is blown away on the spot, just because the letter of the law and procedure allow it.

Two weeks paid vacation, bitches! w00t!

The SOP is like the raid on Charlie Quintard's place. If the citizen is anything but prostrate in compliance, and does anything that can be construed as justification for execution by Leviathan's perverse standards, then by golly blow that perp away! Why risk breaking a nail apprehending a live scumbag when the problem can be handed over cleanly to the coroner's office, eh?

The citizen's life is very cheap indeed, when he has the misfortune of dealing with the not-so-thin blue line. I suspect this will not be forgotten when SHTF.


Larry said...

This is the thing about the cops "not making the law, just enforcing it" line BS: they only very selectively enforce the law. The FBI was fully aware of the fraud going on in the so-called "mortgage crises" but arrested no one. NO ONE. No, not one person. Are they even investigating BOA or Goldman Sachs? No. Have they done a background check on Barry Sorreto, Barack Hussein Obama or any of the other thugs in government? There are serious crimes against the people involving massive amounts of money and the cops pull their ARs and Glocks on - motorists?

Sorry, cop, you deserve Zero respect.

Anonymous said...

"...they also frequently shoot their spouses and family members)." - Anonymous

How many spouses and family members did you interview to arrive at this proclamation? And what constitutes "frequently"?


Professors James D. Wright and Peter Rossi surveyed 2,000 felons incarcerated in state prisons across the United States. Wright and Rossi reported that 34% of the felons said they personally had been “scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim”; 69% said that they knew at least one other criminal who had also; 34% said that when thinking about committing a crime they either “often” or “regularly” worried that they “[m]ight get shot at by the victim”; and 57% agreed with the statement, “Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.” (James D. Wright & Peter H. Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms [1986]. See Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda? by Don B. Kates, et. al. Originally published as 61 Tenn. L. Rev. 513-596 [1994]).



Old Lady said...

It's a shame that the good points got lost in the "Cops are bad" rhetoric.

You had me going there for a while, but since my "boy in black" isn't a jackbooted thug, I sort of nodded off in the middle of the diatribe.

Fact is, this morning when he left for a callout for an armed man barricaded inside his house after beating the sh*t outta his wife, I want him to carry his M4 and if the suspect point a weapon at him, to blow him away. I want MY guy to come home.

But you all don't get that. You don't serve and most of you haven't. There's a few military here and there, but for the most part you're disgruntled citizens who are too "high and mighty" to step up and do the job. OK, I get it.... cops suck and your wonderful friend who did nothing wrong was detained blah blah blah... there are two thoughts here - 1) find out how many calls an officer responds to in a year and then figure out that your friend is probably .05% of them. Yeah, it would be nice if LEOs were perfect. It would also be nice if teachers were perfect, if priests were perfect, it every one of us were. They're not. but 2) if you're so sure that they're bad, why do you not do the job? Do you really advocate a world without any sort of law enforcement. Is this your dream world where every citizen is armed and it's vigilante justice whereever you turn? That's just as much a pipe dream as "world peace". Come on guys (gals)... nut up and apply. Get that job and serve someone besides yourself. I think you'll find that it's not all black and white and easy. This sounds like the people who say "if ~I~ were in charge, I'd ~blank~." Good in theory, but you're not in charge. Armchair quarterbacking is easy in all situations.

Anyway, you guys can all holler at me and be insulting, but know that it's mindsets like that which cause the "boys in black" to be leery. I mean, do you think my guy doesn't want to come home to his family? Is there something about being an officer that makes him different than any other human being? You're just mad because he has the power to infringe upon your rights. Like a small child, it pisses you off.

You hate it when "preppers" and "patriots" are painted with a broad brush as gun-toting rednecks, well I hate the broad brush you're using on the people who do the job you don't have the courage or stomach to do.

SIGH... never mind. It's like preaching responsible parenting to a bunch of hippies. The message simply cannot get thru.

Anonymous said...

"Do you really advocate a world without any sort of law enforcement. Is this your dream world where every citizen is armed and it's vigilante justice whereever you turn?"

You're attacking a straw man. I want alleged evildoers to receive due process, and be held to answer for their charges in court. For a start, that means arresting suspects rather than shooting and tasering them to death when they say insulting words. The monopoly on policing needs to be removed. Competition for the customer's business will tend to reduce the abuses in policing.

"You hate it when "preppers" and "patriots" are painted with a broad brush as gun-toting rednecks, well I hate the broad brush you're using on the people who do the job you don't have the courage or stomach to do."

Have you thought about exactly what this "job" you speak of consists of? Every cop who infringes the bill of rights -- yes, rights as they were understood in the 1780's -- prosecuted and in jail? What percentage of your boy's day is spent working murder, rape, and robbery? Because every other "legal infraction" he jails and fines people for is repugnant to the bill of rights.

SIGH... never mind. It's like preaching liberty and free trade to Republicans. The message simply cannot get thru.

Old Lady said...

LOL... he's a detective. All of his day consists of that!

Seriously though, I can better understand the complaints when I recognize them as being attributed to constitutionalists. It makes much more sense in that context. Constitutionalists hate anything that makes them "do stuff" like get a driver's license. And to them, the "boys in black" are the enemy.

For the rest of us, who are stuck in a world where the constitution has been bastardized, where elected lawmakers screw us without benefit of a reacharound, where my fellow citizens voted for a SEATBELT LAW, where they do not have the courage to vote for legalizing marijuana... in THAT world, my guy does a valuable job. A job that, again, I stress most will never nut up and do. It's "every man for himself and for those who are JUST LIKE ME".

PS, I hate Republicans just as much as I hate Democrats. Just for the record. :)

Old Lady (again) said...

PS... didn't ya'll have parents? Didn't they ever VOTE? What kind of crazy whackjobs were they that they voted in the things you're against? That's where I get upset.

Your parents live in town. They voted to allow a chemical company to build. You're born. You live your life and one day buy your own house next to the chemical company. Then you start complaining that there's a chemical company RIGHT NEXT TO YOUR HOUSE! And it's BRINGING DOWN YOUR PROPERTY VALUES! (happens all the time around here with trains) Now you're protesting that this company exists. Um... blame your parents. They're the morons who agreed to it.

So in this case, blame your grandparents and your grandparent's parents and so on. They were the crazy folk who voted in so much of this stuff. We're just forced to LIVE IN IT. And if I were in that town and hated it so much? I'd move. There's plenty of places I could go with rules that I like. It seems odd to me that when I live somewhere then - other than voting change - I can simply not follow the rules that exist because they might infringe upon my rights.

BE THE CHANGE you want to see!!!!

Texican said...

Interesting reading here. No one can tell at this time when or where our "stand at Concord Bridge" will be, but I can bet that local LEO's will be the first to recognize it. And I will bet that the first word of it will come from the local LEO's. I don't know where the cop haters live, but at least here in Texas we're hoping that when it does come, that we can hold the line till we get help from the citizenry. That's all I can say about it for now.

Anonymous said...

Texican, I am one of those citizens who will show up on the line with you, but unfortunately I am in colorado, but will stand with any officers who stand for us.

If they do not stand for us, that is a whole other ball game.

Will Simmons said...

I must disagree with some of the posters that ALL cops are bad and corrupt. I do squarely believe a FEW are truly corrupt and that MANY are automatons doing what they're told for a paycheck. I think pay is a big part of it. It's a simple law of economics that if the pay for a job increases it will increase the number of applicants and that the interviewer will be able to chose better candidates for the position. I was in a restaurant the other day and a local community cop had full sleeve tattoos. But for his uniform I'd have thought he was a local gang member. For the most part, we've gotten away from the college educated professional lawman of yore and replaced him with a high school grad who took the job for a paycheck and without a real commitment to serve the people. That does NOT mean there aren't any good people on the force. In any profession there are those whose commitment to duty and work ethic supersedes a mere paycheck. I know many fine officers and I have known a few who strayed from the path. I am an active marksman with CCW and I do carry a great majority of the time. I would absolutely assist an oficer in need. Do I fear being identified as a fellow suspect in that scenario and possibly shot myself by the officer I'm trying to defend? YES, I do think there is that chance, albeit small, but it won't stop me from responding any more than it will stop me from responding to an incident without an officer around. If you want law officers to join in to your movement I highly recommend you do not group them all together as the Condemned, but seek out the good ones and support them in serving as role moels for the others to "bring them along".

Anonymous said...

Old Lady writes: "he's a detective. All of his day consists of [investigating crimes with actual victims such as murder, rape, and robbery]"

I'm sure he prioritizes his day to work on his cases, but that doesn't mean he won't enforce the victimless "crime" laws if somebody breaks them in a way he can't ignore. At most he is personally less aggressive about perusing those lawbreakers than some other officers. He won't taser a suspect to death, but he won't arrest anyone that does, either. Why should I support his work?

"Constitutionalists hate anything that makes them "do stuff" like get a driver's license."

Of course they do, and why shouldn't they? They recognize that a "driver's license" is a BS demand from the slave overseer. As Vin says, nobody demands to see his high school diploma, or keep the address on it updated, even though he earned that proof of skill training around the same time.

"didn't ya'll have parents? Didn't they ever VOTE? What kind of crazy whackjobs were they that they voted in the things you're against?"

We did have parents, they did vote, they were crazy whackjobs and they sold us into slavery. Don't blame me for their decisions.

"BE THE CHANGE you want to see!!!!"

I am trying. I don't hire men with guns to boss other people around ("vote").

Anonymous said...

"Frequently" = every day.

Every day some gun-owner shoots his family up.

Every day.

Is that not frequently enough for you?

Anonymous said...

Well, we are coming to a time where it will require the police officer do more than keep his car seat warm, chase speeders instead of pedophiles who are elected to office, and chase tax issues for the feds rather than chase rape suspects, finally impliment martial law rather than follow his oath to protect the constitution and his fellow citizens from tyranny by the elite..

I live in a town where the cops chase who the prosecutors tell them to chase because they want the cases that make it look good for the prosecutors record.... drunk driving, expired licenses, expired registration, but NO INVESTIGATION INTO WHITE COLLAR CRIME, no investigation into real serious burglary, drugs in school, arresting drug dealers, raiding known drug distribution houses, etc.

Why? Because the prosecutor is usually a neocon and wants reelection based on prosecutorial success.

Cops were even lying about so called crimes and doing so under oath. I caught one, had a witness to his lie, and brought it in to court and he got fired because the judge screamed at the prosecutor saying "if you knew about this lying you are in trouble" so they fired him, BUT NO PROSECUTION FOR PERJURY. Nothing happened to the prosecutor, who damn well knew about it.

The entire system is corrupt.

Vatic said...

Anonymous, would you provide links to that information?

truly, I have read the stats on gun deaths by intentional murder and if what you say is true that is at least a minimum of 365 gun deaths by people against their spouses or even anyone against their family.

Even if true that is way way less than the 21 million killed by Stalin in Russia when he confiscated the peoples guns and the 12 million by Hitler when he confiscated the guns. So, if I have a choice, guess which one it will be. Sorry. If they have to fear for their lives coming for my guns then so be it. That is better than sitting like a rabbit waiting for them to kill you with no protection and any chance of living and surviving, because these are the same people who did stalin and Hitler, no thanks.

I need a link to prove that and check the source of that information since it does not fit with the stats I have seen. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

I would like the LEO supporters here to read each of the stories cited in the link below. Having done so, please explain again why it is irrational for law-abiding, peaceable, rational people to fear the police more than they fear the non-uniformed criminals:

David Codrea's 'The Only Ones'

Please tell us why things are not as they appear, especially given that 'The Only Ones' files do not include all instances of police misconduct that happen every month in this country.

Please explain why right-minded folks should not assume that most police are members of gangs, either explicitly by their actions or implicitly by their silence in the face of their brother and sister officers' illegal behavior.

I want to hear your explanation.


Sergeant Mac said...

I've had people inform me that they have a CCW permit and were carrying at the time, and my response has always been the same: "OK. You don't show me yours, I won't show you mine."

Because if neither of us is a murderous asshat, simply having the means is irrelevant.

(FWIW, my personal belief is that CCW is covered under the 2nd Amendment. And my professional belief is that concealed means CONCEALED.)

Anonymous, you don't know me, but you act like you THINK you do. Believe whatever you want to believe. I myself am a minarchist, not an anarchist, but I nonetheless share most of your beliefs. Most, not all, because I've spent nearly 5 decades living in the REAL world.

EClark: thank you.

If/When the day comes, you'll know for sure "whom I serve." (assuming, of course, that I survive long enough, having not been sniped off by some hostile knee-jerk asshat who just ASSUMED I was the enemy because of the clothes I was wearing)

Vatic said...

I agree with the Sargeant. Not all police are bad or even neutral. In fact, when the time comes I don't think they will stand against us since the courts are as corrupt as any other branch of government now.

What does worry me, is that they are being trained by Blackwater or their ilk to be "militarized" and that is what worries me. They just increased the military for domestic occupation by using local law enforcement and that is where the rubber will meet the road.

All PO's are going to have to talk to their fellow officers and see who will stand with the people both right and left since we are in this together.

New article out today that the gov is saying Starkey was a rightwing nuts and all right wing nuts are dangerous.

Its that kind of propoganda and provocateuring that the nazi's are now pumping like they did in Hitlers time. If we stand together we will make it, but if we allow them to divide us, we are doomed.

History has shown us that already for centuries. United we stand, divided we fall.

thedweeze said...

Old Lady typed:

"...which cause the "boys in black" to be leery. I mean, do you think my guy doesn't want to come home to his family?"

Agreed. But please bear in mind that WE want to go home to OUR families, too.

"You hate it when "preppers" and "patriots" are painted with a broad brush as gun-toting rednecks, well I hate the broad brush you're using on the people who do the job you don't have the courage or stomach to do.

SIGH... never mind. It's like preaching responsible parenting to a bunch of hippies. The message simply cannot get thru."

Ah, an unsupported assumption with included insults plus a bonus ad hominem. Nicely done there, ma'am.

And Sgt. Mac? If you don't want to be taken out by "some hostile knee-jerk asshat", I would suggest you do everything in your power to stand out from the thugs who prey on us under color of law. And claiming it's "just a few bad apples" or "those guys over there, not me" isn't gonna cut it. Not any more.
Remember: I want to go home at the end of your shift, too.

Anonymous said...

Be a real American individualist and do your own study. Don't rely on the statist intellectuals or Mainstream Media for your information. Just monitor all the newspapers and TV stations in 10 or 20 decent sized American cities for a few weeks--guarantee you'll get at least one gunner killing spouse daily.

Anonymous said...

I have found the responses to Mike Vanderboegh's letter from Law ENFORCEMENT Officers to be the usual pathetic whining that they always resort to any time their rice paper thin skin is bruised. I have never seen a bigger group of cry babies. Why is it that anytime you question them about anything all you ever hear is "I am only doing my job, it's not my fault, blame the politicians, the law is the law, we MUST enforce the law, don't blame me, you MUST comply, you MUST submit, don't challenge my authority, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum?" It sounds an awful lot like the mantra that was spouted at Nuremberg to me. The moment you question anyone with a badge they get all defensive and start saying you're unpatriotic, uneducated, immature, have a bad attitude, take your pick. Ben Franklin said that "it is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority." That approach doesn't go over too well with government in general or them in particular anymore. Especially when they are actually wearing the badge at the time, then a clubbing, tasering, or worse is coming. Well the citizenry is getting real tired of it as Mike's letter so eloquently expressed. They need to start treating us as equals again. They need us a heck of a lot more than we need them. The last time I checked the fruits of my labors were taken from me through taxes to support their six figure salaries and lavish benefits. Where is the appreciation for that. No one in the private sector gets 90% retirement after 30 years and we are supposed to feel sorry for them? Give me a break. A recent Rasmussen poll which indicated that 61% of the population feel that the government no longer has the consent of the people should be a real eye opener for them. They should ask themselves how that relates to their perceived authority (in actuality their lack thereof). Most will probably ignore it but they would do well not to. It is time for them to get down off of the snivel boxes and take a good hard look in the mirror. If their heart is in the right place and they hold their fellow brothers in blue to task when they are out of line with the citizenry then I applaud them and they have my support. If not then they better take Mike's letter to heart and stop the whining over their ruffled feathers and tarnished pride because it is highly deserved. Nothing good will come of the situation as it currently exists and even more worrisome is the direction that things are heading. They have the power to make a real difference in the fate of our Republic as long as they can keep their overinflated egos out of the way.

Sergeant Mac said...

In my neck of the woods, cops are leaving the job in droves, and subsequently replaced with younger cops.

The down side is that the younger ones tend to be more aggressive, and more impressed with themselves.

The plus side is that I get to work with them early on. This means that they see me hand out warnings like candy, and they see me apply for search warrants instead of relying upon exceptions.

And, most of all, they see me treating people decently, even when they've done wrong.

....and they hear me tell them, early and often, to forget any notion of "us vs. them", because "we" WORK FOR "them."

As for Codrea's "Only Ones", I've pointed out over there that there are over 500,000 cops of one kind or another in this country, and even if you assume that there are TWICE as many instances as he pointed out on a "typical" day (16), it figures out to about 2% of cops behaving that badly over the course of an entire year.

There ARE dishonest cops, brutal cops, and obnoxious cops. Just as there are dishonest, brutal, and obnoxious people in general. For the most part, though, people tend to reflect the manner in which they are treated. (and that works BOTH if EVERY cop you've ever met was an asshat, consider the ramifications.....)

Anonymous said...


If the 'Kansas Scout' here is also the same one who commented on part 5 of Baugh's treatise over @ the Western Rifle Shooters Assn site, you may find the comment made there of interest when compared w/ what KS wrote here.

Cassandra (of Troy)

Anonymous said...

'Old Lady':

The final sentence of the 3d paragraph of your initial response to the previously posted comments told me essentially all I needed to know about where you're @ regarding people who aren't in law enforcement, & the dismissive & derisive content & tone of your later comments merely served to confirm the impression of you the aforementioned line gave me, to wit: As long as YOUR "guy" comes home to you, whatever he does to accomplish that requirement is fine w/ you & everyone else can choke on it if they don't like it. Be advised, however, that the very same "rationale" is used by the "women", children, "families", & other supporters of the "gangstas" that "your guy" & his colleagues play tag w/ & is every bit as much a BS line when they claim that they "do wut dey gotta do ta suhvyve" as it is when used by a cop, gulag goon, death camp guard, or anyone else trying to justify their perfidy. And before you let fly w/ accusations that I'm some kind of badly parented, anti-cop "hippie"/commie/spoiled brat/etc., be advised that my hide's been saved on more than one occasion from duly sworn thugs w/ badges by decent cops who had the guts to tell the others to back off. I also had no animus toward said decent cops when they cuffed my dumb young ass, bundled me into the back of the cruiser, & took me to jail. Still don't, btw, as I deserved it, & those "good guys" have my undying gratitude for not going w/ the flow & allowing their colleagues to beat me into the hospital & then a wheelchair in one instance, & in another instance kill me outright for the heinous crime of having long hair @ the wrong time/place & no, I didn't get chesty or run my mouth either. I'm a FIRM believer in/practioner of the "Mafia" rule for interaction w/ LE: "Say 'Yes sir, No sir, & I want my lawyer sir' & NOTHING else. Do your fighting in court & settle up later ONLY if you have to". Those cops & similar that I've met give me a small measure of hope that all's not entirely lost for American LE, but that hope's dwindling as time goes on & the numbers of truly bad cops & "Sgt Shultz" types increase & there's apparently little if any interest in weeding them out & correcting the situation.

Cassandra (of Troy)

Vatic said...

Anon, I never rely on MSM, lol what a joke they have become. AT this point in time they are single handedly responsible for the overthrow of our governmental system, which is high treason. My greatest desire is to live long enough to see them hung next to the Rockefellers who expressed deep gratitude for their cooperation in bring us down OR THEY COULD NEVER HAVE DONE IT, is how he put it, in public and documented as evidence at the next trial, whether nuremberg or UNDERGROUND.

I have done more than that I lived in ten cities and I can guarantee you there were no murders in those 10 cities DAILY OF COPS KILLING THEIR SPOUSES or children. They actually have more of a tendancy to commit suicide greater than the general population, but their killing others within their family is in line with the general population.

Its what they have done with tazers that bothers me. It bothers me who they think they work for, it bothers me, that they will follow orders for a paycheck.

I told one highway patrolman, "the day is coming when your going to have to make a decision, either us or them". He mumbled something about conspiracy and I laughed and said, "You don't fool me, you know better! You just don't want to have to make that decision, but you are going to have to do it. Sorry".

There is already an effective underground as the 16 dead bankers and their relatives can attest too, so its happening.

Ayn R. Key said...

It is sad how many police use the Nuremberg Defense.

Anonymous said...

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about cops killing their families (which also happens, but not daily); I'm talking about the average, run of the mill, everyday gun owning and 'law abiding' American who is mythologized on sites like this.

THAT GUY kills his wife and/or kids daily across the country.

And he uses the same guns that he will claim are his defense against tyranny.

Isn't it interesting how it's basically an all boys club here and in all sites where gun loving citizens get together to discuss how to save liberty? Wonder how many posting here use the unspoken threat of their guns to keep wifey and kids silent and in their place?

If hubby is as gun-happy as you apparently are, Mama L., I'd watch my back--you don't want to end up like Meleanie Hain.

Vatic said...

Anonymous, forgive me in misunderstanding your point, but my question is how many non gun owners kill their wives and children by strangulation, or other means?

See, owning a gun does not kill a spouse, the intent of the spouse doing it is what kills. He could use a baseball bat, a screw driver, a knife, etc.

And to associate those who kill their spouses with the liberty movement or gun owners and those fearful of tyranny is definitely a straw man tactic.

What I see going on this past week is that the "EVERYONE HATE MUSLIMS" tactic isn't working,no one is buying, but now we see with some, that some hate is ok, as long as its against the conservative patriot or gun owner, or the watchman speaking a warning about tyranny.

Now why is that? ITS THE DIVIDE AND CONQUOR tactic of the neocons who are out to destroy the nation. If you think things are normal from 10 years ago, or even 20 then you are hiding your head in a sand pocket. Wake up and do not jump down that rabbit hole.

Gun owners are not only just like you and me, they are also more prone toward safety and non use than someone who does not own a gun.

Sorry, but I would trust a gun owner to cover my back any day of the week to a person who would welcome slavery and would sell his or her soul for safety and security provided by those who are threatening both safety and security in order to get you to give up your liberty for both.

You will receive neither once you do. Really, HOW DO YOU THINK 60 RUSSIANS WERE SLAUGHTERED by Stalin AND 12 MILLION EUROPEANS BY HITLER? You think that happened while the population was armed?

NO, FIRST THEY GOT DISARMED. Those doing this hate us with a purple passion. The hate is deep and intense and they would love nothng better than to see us die slowly and painfully while they watch. You have no idea what is going on do you?

The Vatic Project; a people to people intiative

Check it out and wake up.

Anonymous said...

Is it 21 million or 60 million, Vatic? Your numbers have changed from one post to another. Maybe it's an infinite number--that's as big as it gets and the best one for making the absurd claim you want to make--that not having guns is what enabled totalitarianism. The government ALWAYS has bigger guns than you do, bro.

Look up the stats, Vatic. The vast majority of women killed by their husbands and boyfriends are killed by guns. They're not strangled, or beaten with ball bats, or stabbed, or pushed into the deep section at the pool. They're shot with guns. The same guns those guys likely used to terrorize the poor women prior to actually killing them.

Vatic said...

I said 21 millin but someone else on here said 60, I stick with the conservative much lower number just for numbnuts like you.

The best thing you can do with your lack of knowledge of what is going on around you is to stand up for what you believe, ask for gun control, take all guns away from everyone and then see what happens.

Frankly, those that won't give them up will still be standing when they knock on your door WITH ABSOLUTELY NO FEAR and take you away. Ask the dissidents in Nazi Germany, they talk about it all the time. They were the first to go and reported on by people like you called "COLLABORATORS". Good luck. Never forget what the underground did to collaborators in Europe.

Vatic said...

anon, I apologize, I did put 60 down and was wrong to do so since I never say that. But regarless, 21 million is more than enough to make the point.

When you get over a million murdered by your own government, it becomes redundant and brutal at that point. Anything over a million is just satanic. But then some people like you don't care about anyone but themselves. so whats a few million dead pregnant women, old people, children etc.

Right? Are you sure you don't work for these guys???

Chris Mallory said...

We hung a lot of German boys for "just doing their jobs for a paycheck". "Following orders" didn't save them, it shouldn't save the cops either.

Anonymous said...

Got it. It's a two step automatic process--regulate guns, then the government comes and puts you in the oven. That explains why all the people living in European states that have rational gun control were sent to the ovens immediately.

Oh, wait, you mean, they're not in jail or in the ovens, but actually living their lives free of the lunatic next door shooting up the high school or post office? But what about Vatic's theory?

Vatic said...

Gee, well, lets clear that little point up.... lets talk to the 21 million dead and ask them how they feel about that. How did those remaining people escape.

Oh, thats right, they were mostly nazi's doing the killing or approving the killing, well, I suppose that is another viable option you can take here as well.

Just be careful, the underground knew how to deal with those collaborators, indeed they did. Best just leave the country. OH, THATS RIGHT, MILLIONS DID THAT TOO OVER THERE AND THEN CAME BACK once the war was over.

Well, that is another option as well:

1. Guns which allowed the underground to stay alive and help defeat Hitler. OH, is that alright with you Anony??? Help defeat nazi's??? Maybe not and that is why you want us unarmed.

2. Collaborate and turn in your neighbor is another option. I get the feeling this is really "you" so you don't need a gun or your fellow collaborators don't need one. In fact, the underground would appreciate it if you didn't get one, thanks.

3. Leave the country, well, no, I wouldn't want you to leave and then come back so you can do this all over again, like those that left did before.

Well, looks like its all solved. You and your fellow collaborators do not need to buy a gun. Issue solved.

Anonymous said...

What a sad way to look at the world. You disagree with me? You're a "collaborator." You got Nazi on the brain. Funny how many people on the ultra-right do. It's called projection. You're seeing the Nazi inside yourself.

Vatic Master said...

Gee, I go back and read what you wrote and your name calling started way before my comments with your calling everyone who did not agree with you a right winger and far right at that.

Now how do you know that? You don't so don't be a hypocrit because it disservices your pontificating from on high to others. You left wing commies want us all to live under a Stalin, now how is that for stereotyping, see? We can all do that. Remember STalin killed millions and that is not disputed even by you.

But you conveniently neglect to even mention or respond to that point, don't you? Gee, wonder why?

Who do you work for "Anonymous"?

Anonymous said...

I had my choice made for me by an arrogant self-serving Sheriff. But I always knew what the lay of the land was. I always knew where all this would end up because I was a shooter and second amendment advocate before I was a cop.

I can't speak for the current crop but there were those whom I would trust with my rights and some I wouldn't. It's not a matter of trust, never was, it's a matter of Constitutional law as described by the founders themselves.

But then that would be pretending that those documents mean anything and are of any consequence to the ruling class and their support staffs. Well, I want freedom (old school definitions only) for my kids and now grand kids and I mean to see they have it, to quote the movie.

No matter the cost, no matter who's in the way, no matter what.

Anonymous said...

I am a proud law enforcement officer and have been for 12 years. I treat people with respect and try to my job to the best of my abilty every day. I beleave that every RESPONSIBLE person should own a gun(s) and have the skill to use it. With that said, reading the post on here about what this group of people think about leo's is far from getting leo's to understand your point of view ( the letter to leo's). While I don't agree whith much of the things going on in goverment, I don't agree with the " plans" this group has for changing things. I did take an oath and I will stand up for what I beleave and that puts me standing aginst this group. If you want change VOTE for change, don't let daydreams of being a hero in a war aginst the goverment get you killed. I love my country and we can get it back on track by voting. The person who wrote "the letter to leo's" that you hold as a hero clams to be aginst big goverment, to many taxes, goverment hand outs, etc. has the time to run this web site because he does not have to work like me and you. He gets a disabilty check from....... the goverment that he hates. Our taxes pay his bills, if he wanted to make a real statement he would stop taking the checks (hand outs) from the goverment. He has more fun planing criminal acts aginst the country that I love, and the people that follow him does not question any thing that he says. This makes him a dangerous person but he will not act on the ideas that he preaches, he will try to get you to do it. Charles Manson had the same leadership skills. Wake up people and do something productive not something illegal.

Anonymous said...

March 23rd, Anonymous LEO. While I can appreciate your particular point of view, let me say that your comments indicate that you don't have a farthing clue about what is going on, what has already happened and what they have planned for us.

This is serious. Khyrgysztan government fell, because Law enforcement knew full what the people were going through while LEO's were a privledged class and did not suffer under the thumb of anyone. But it was their neighbors, their relatives, their loved ones that were at risk. Thus they stood down and would not repress their own people.

In case you don't know it, you took an oath and it wasn't to the government or the foreign powers that currently run it or the bankers that buy it, it was to the Constitution and the people.

LEO's have gotten more perks, more equipment, more status and have been militarized which gives them a bigger sense of power. If you don't believe me go look at the stats on how many helpless unarmed people have been killed by errant use of the taser??? THE POWER OF LIFE AND DEATH can be a drug and if not used totally responsibly can turn even the most well meaning LEO into a tool for foreign occupiers of our country against our own people.

Now, having said all that. You are one of us, we do not want to hurt you, but if you put us in aposition where our survival and freedom are at risk because you choose to serve the domestic enemy of the people and the Constitution, then be aware your group lost in europe when the underground went active. Just so you know.

Its my vervent prayer that you choose to be with us and that you have the courage, character and integrity to do what is right when they come to put us in camps as slaves. Educate yourself about what is going on......

and begin serious reading. Or begin serious preparation.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, I gave you an incorrect link. Here try this and seriously do the reading if you are going to be making life and death decisions about those you were hired to protect and for yourself and family as well.

Vatic Project

Anonymous said...

Going through all these comments have left me with one thing.

Not one cop believes in the 2nd amendment as it was written. Not one cop believes in inalienable rights.

Not one cop has specifically said that there are some laws they won't enforce.

Not one cop has said they have taken part in getting a bad cop fired and/or put in prison.

Hell, you people are even roughing up old people and tazering grannies. You arrest children for having guns on their t-shirts on school grounds ... or a plastic eating knife. The list just goes on! Or arrest a man for sticking up for his wife being groped by a TSA goon!

It goes on and on and on.

Are you FRIKKIN blind! Or are you just BULLSHITTING us!


Stop it!

Just frikkin stop it!


Anonymous said...

As an 11 year Law Enforcement Veteran I can assure you that you are way off base here. For every one bad cop I promise you there are 1000 good ones. I will concede that we hold the CCW permit holders to a higher standard, but you need to concede that better then half of you bait Law Enforcement Officers when stopped. I would argue around 80% of those I have dealt with have this attitude that they are somehow above the law or immune to it. I think it is so you can go to your crazy wack-job gun owners meeting and talk about how you told the cop where he can go. Your post here drips with that attitude. The idea that a Police Officer has some level of control over you or some greater power in society drives you crazy.

You should stop blaming cops and start blaming the actions of legal gun owners like Timothy McVeigh. Your rhetoric mirrors his thoughts on our government and you wonder why we look more closely at you.

"...quit looking at and treating the law-abiding armed citizenry of the United States as the enemy. For if you don’t, we certainly will be."

What does that mean? Another Oklahoma City? That does not sound Law-Abiding at all.

I don't know what some cop did to piss you off but inciting violence is not the answer. Just relax, crime is actually going down for the first time in our society. Even with the economic recession (which will end before you have to start shooting people) we have not seen the dramatic spike in crime that we thought we would.

Gang violence is a huge problem but it is somewhat self contained. Most gang members are only interested in robbing and killing rival gang members.

If you truly do wish to have better dealings with the Police, start by being polite. Follow your state guidelines exactly when carrying you firearm. If you have questions about how you should be carrying your firearm in your car or in public ask them before you are stopped. Your traffic stop is not the place to find out you are doing it wrong, and being ignorant of the law is not an excuse... Ever! If you start treating cops with respect you will go a long way in your interactions. If you do come up in a situation with a bad cop, you can always request (politely) a supervisor or another officer as a witness. If you are cited or arrested you will have your day in court and the chances of you coming against a corrupt cop and a corrupt judge and a corrupt prosecutor.... well it's just not going to happen. If you think it has happened then just put you tin foil hat back on and wait for the space men to come pick you back up.

As far as whose side we are on... that is an insult to anyone who has ever worn a badge. We do a lot of good out there and too many of us give our lives because people like you give your children the idea that we are the enemy.

Anonymous said...

11 year law officer.... its truly time for you to wake up. Anything you do to an American citizen that is in total violation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and you do it on your masters orders, is treason if these people you harm or arrest are simply exercising free speech and not showing any harm or violence to anyone. There are no free speech zones in the constitution. Keep that in mind.

You said that someone on here had a "thing" about "your power and authority" and since YOU BROUGHT IT UP, DO YOU think maybe YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS A THING ABOUT YOUR POWER AND AUTHORITY???

Remember, you are part of a community in which you and your family live. Keep that in mind always. Since it could be your family you are ordered to arrest for exercising their constitutional rights under the protection of the Bill of Rights. Just keep that in mind.

Your ego is not important here , but the survival of this nation as a free nation is at stake. Do you realize they cannot institute tyranny anywhere without the aid and abetting of law enforcment?

That is why they are trying to militarize you. Some are responding to that power and authority given to them by the real criminals who have no authority or right to do so. Keep all this in mind when having to finally get off that fence and decide what side of your oath you are on.

Anonymous said...

I'm a little late on this, but I just read the letter and all the comments and I felt the need to respond.

11 year LEO posted: "..and being ignorant of the law is not an excuse... Ever!"

So, you know EVERY SINGLE law on the books in whatever state you work?

I'll bet you don't. If you're ignorant of the law, why am I required to know the ins and outs? It's because guys like you, who cite the age-old 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' adage, will arrest me for not reading the thousands of laws on the books. I need to know the law inside and out in my state, because if I miss penal code section 9147, I'll get arrested. That's section nine-thousand, one-hundred and forty seven. I'm pretty sure its mentally impossible for anyone to memorize the entire penal code from any state.

You're telling me that you have memorized the thousand upon thousands of laws on the books in your state?

Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse? Give me a break.

Anonymous said...

only problem is, this unrest, caused by the republicans, bush and the cia. a better catch phrase is 'faithless generation . . .'