Friday, March 27, 2009

Praxis: "Civilians buy the dam things on a daily basis."

M24 Sniper Rifle, available in 7.62 NATO and .300 Winchester Magnum.

Just as the Madcap Militia Munitions Works (a wholly owned subsidiary of NITMIL Labs) is gearing up to load several hundred .300 Winchester Magnums with AP projectiles, comes this article from Strategy Page:

Magnum Reach Required

March 24, 2009: Once again, the U.S. Army is responding to requests from snipers for a longer range weapon, but not one as bulky and heavy as the .50 caliber rifle. In response to these requests, the army is modifying existing M24 rifles to fire the power powerful .300 Winchester Magnum round. It was felt that this gave the snipers all the additional range they needed, without requiring a much heavier rifle. SOCOM has been using this approach since the early 1990s.

The calls were loudest from snipers operating in Afghanistan, where U.S. Army and Marine Corps shooters wanted a sniper rifle that can consistently get kills out to 1,800 meters. The current 7.62mm round is good only to about 800 meters. There were three options available here. The most obvious one is to use a 12.7mm sniper rifle. But these are heavier (at 30 pounds) and bulkier than 7.62mm weapons, but can get reliable hits out to 2,000 meters.

Another option was to use a more powerful, but not much larger, round. For example, you can replace the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle for about $4,000, so that it can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. This is longer (at 7.62 x 67mm) than the standard 7.62x51mm round, and is good out to 1,200 meters. Another option is to replace the barrel and receiver of the M24 sniper rifles to handle the .338 (8.6mm) Lapua Magnum round. Thus you still have a 17 pound sniper rifle, but with a round that can hit effectively out to about 1,600 meters.

British snipers in Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, have found the Lapua Magnum round does the job at twice the range of the standard 7.62x51mm round. The 8.6mm round entered use in the early 1990s, and became increasingly popular with police and military snipers. Dutch snipers have used this round in Afghanistan with much success, and have a decade of experience with these larger caliber rifles. British snipers in Afghanistan are also using the new round, having converted many of their 7.62mm sniper rifles. Recognizing the popularity of the 8.6mm round, Barrett, the pioneer in 12.7mm sniper rifles, came out with a 15.5 pound version of its rifle, chambered for the 8.6mm. But the U.S. preferred the lighter magnum 7.62mm solution.

This is not the first time the U.S. Army has quickly responded to sniper needs. Two years ago, in response to requests from snipers operating in urban areas of Iraq, the U.S. Army began issuing the M110 SASS (Semi-Automatic Sniper System). Urban snipers often have multiple targets, at relatively short ranges. They needed a semiautomatic rifle.

Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate. As far back as World War II, it was known that there were many situations where a semi-automatic sniper rifle would come in handy. But it's taken over half a century to solve the reliability and accuracy problems.

The M110 is a based on the AR-10 rifle. The U.S. Navy has been buying a similar weapon, the SR25. This is also known as the Mk11 Sniper Rifle System (SRS). These new semi-automatic sniper rifles are 7.62mm weapons based on the designs of M-16 creator, retired USAF Colonel Gene Stoner. The basis for the M-16 was the AR-15, and a 7.62mm version of that weapon was called the AR-10. About half the parts in the SR25 are interchangeable with those in the M-16. The Stoner sniper rifles achieved its high accuracy partly by using a 20 inch heavy floating barrel. The "floating" means that the barrel is attached only to the main body of the rifle to reduce resonance (which throws off accuracy.)

The M110 weighs 17.3 pounds in combat, and about 70 pounds with all components of the system. The M110 can use a ten or twenty round magazine. The 40.5 inch long rifle can have a six inch tube attached to the barrel, which reduces the noise and flash made when the rifle fires, and largely eliminates nearby dust rising into the air, which often gives away the snipers position.

The M110 will gradually replace many of the bolt-action M24s, while the remaining M24s will be converted to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum.

From Army Times last August, here is another discussion of the subject, including some problems with the M110 SASS.

M110 SASS (Knight's Armament SR25)

Army, Corps seek longer-range sniper rifle

By Matthew Cox - Staff report
Posted : Wednesday Aug 6, 2008 14:59:52 EDT

For decades, 7.62mm has been the sniper standard for long-range killing. But after more than six years of war, today’s snipers also want a more potent caliber capable of killing enemy fighters well beyond 1,000 meters.

Army and Marine Corps weapons officials recently announced that they wanted a long-range sniper rifle designed to kill an enemy from as far out as 1,800 meters. The Marine Corps-led program is aimed at selecting an anti-personnel sniper weapon to complement the standard 7.62mm sniper rifle, which is effective out to 800 meters.

But there is also a lower-profile effort going on in the 25th Infantry Division to upgrade the venerable M24 sniper rifle from a 7.62mm NATO round to the more powerful .300 Winchester Magnum, a change that would give snipers the ability to hit an enemy out to 1,200 meters.

Late last year, the Army began replacing the bolt-action M24 with the M110 Semiautomatic Sniper System to give snipers a rapid-fire weapon for engaging multiple targets in urban areas. Many in the sniper community were critical of the decision, arguing that the M24’s simple bolt-action design has fewer moving parts and is more accurate than a more complex semi-auto design.

This prompted 25th ID officials in Hawaii to write an Operational Needs Statement that involved sending their existing M24s to the gun’s maker, Remington Arms Co. in Madison, N.C., to be retrofitted to .300 Win Mag instead of turning them in to the Army, said Maj. Chaz Bowser, logistics support element commander for U.S. Army Pacific.

The caliber upgrade for the M24 is not a new concept. Special operations units such as the 75th Ranger Regiment have been shooting M24s chambered in .300 Win Mag since the late 1990s.

And there were plans to eventually upgrade the M24 to .300 Win Mag when the weapon was first adopted in 1989, Bowser said, adding that that plan became a “forgotten concept” because the Army wasn’t involved in a protracted war as it is today.

“We weren’t fighting bad guys; we were shooting ... at the National Training Center,” Bowser said, referring to the Army installation at Fort Irwin, Calif.

Capt. Jason Lojka, who oversees Army Sniper School as commander of C Company, 2nd Battalion, 29th Infantry Regiment, at Fort Benning, Ga., said he was not aware of the 25th ID effort, but he acknowledged that “there has been talk of changing the M24 to a .300 Win Mag.”

Capt. Keith Bell, Lojka’s predecessor at Sniper School, agreed. It’s an easy fix that requires minimal changes to the M24 and will result in a much greater capability, he said. Bell is assigned to a military transition team at Fort Riley, Kan.

“It’s a whole lot easier to hit a target between 800 and 1,200 meters with a .300 Win Mag,” he said, describing the round’s flat trajectory and reduced resistance to wind.

Many snipers see the upgrade to .300 Win Mag as a way to hold on to the M24, a weapon they say they believe is more reliable and accurate than the M110.

The M110 relies on the same gas system as the M16 and M4 carbine. When the round is fired, it directs the gas created down a tube into the weapon’s receiver, and cycles the weapon.

The M24’s action requires snipers to manually feed a round into the chamber after each shot with the weapon’s bolt.

“I would just rather rely on my right hand and a piece of metal” to cycle that weapon as opposed to a gas system, Bell said. “A gas gun is going to fail more often than a bolt gun. Period.”

To date, the Army has fielded about 500 M110s. Although it’s still early in the process, some snipers have criticized the durability of the Knight’s Armament Co. weapon.

A sniper section leader, who asked to remain anonymous, recently told Army Times that his unit has had to ship his section’s three M110s back to Knight’s Armament to be repaired.

“They’re all broke, all three of them,” he said. “Two of them started firing two- to three-round bursts.” The third M110 won’t fire at all, he said.

Army weapons officials said they are aware of these problems and one M110 at Fort Wainwright, Alaska, that suffers from the same problem of so-called “double firing” on a single trigger squeeze, said Rich Audette, deputy project manager for soldier weapons.

Several snipers have told Army Times that some special operations units have experienced the same problem with the MK11 MOD 0 rifle, an earlier version of the M110 that Navy SEALs have used since the late 1990s.

Trigger assembly

The problem may have to do with two special screws in the trigger assembly that are set at the factory, said Bob Galeazzi, product director for sniper systems under Product Manager Crew Served Weapons.

The Army experienced problems with the trigger screws moving during endurance testing on the M110’s original design, said Reed Knight, owner of Knight’s Armament.

As a fix, the Titusville, Fla., company made the screws harder and changed the threading during testing in 2005.

Knight said he was surprised that this problem has surfaced in three M110s.

“I am a bit disturbed, because we think we have solved the problem,” he said. “We have gone through two 5,000-round tests.”

If there is a problem with these M110s, Knight said, they will be “fixed and sent back to the field.”

“We don’t want anything out there that is not what it should be,” he said.

Some snipers have said they want to be trained so they can fix their M110s themselves. Army officials maintain that snipers are trained to make small fixes such as replacing the firing pin or extractor, but any major fixes on the M110 have to be done at the unit armor level or at Knight’s Armament, Audette said.

In addition to reliability and durability, Bell and other snipers said they believe the M24, because of its simpler design, is more accurate than the M110.

“When you want to squeeze that last bit of accuracy out of a weapon, you want a bolt gun,” Bell said. “It’s not that the [M110] is a bad weapon; it just shouldn’t be the only weapon.”

The 25th ID’s upgrade effort involves sending the existing M24s to Remington, where they will be fitted with a new barrel, a new bolt face, a special folding stock and a more powerful optic. Each upgrade would cost about $4,000, said Mike Haugen, director of international military and law enforcement sales for Remington. Standard M24s cost about $6,700, he added.

The 25th ID’s leadership has approved an operational needs statement, Bowser said, but it still will have to be approved by senior leaders at the Pentagon.

Small-arms officials at the Infantry Center also are working to give snipers a new longer-range sniper rifle in addition to the two weapons they use now.

Greater distance

Both the Marine Corps and the Army have completed separate assessments that reached the same conclusion — snipers need to be able to take longer-range anti-personnel shots, said Col. Robert Radcliffe, who heads up the Directorate of Combat Developments at Benning.

“We agree we would like to have a longer-range antipersonnel system,” he said. “We haven’t figured out how to solve that yet.”

Both the Army and the Marine Corps use versions of a .50-caliber sniper rifle that is effective out to 2,000 meters, but the 30-pound weapon is mainly intended to destroy large nonhuman targets such as light-skinned vehicles.

The Army and the Corps want a weapon comparable in weight to the Marine M40 series sniper weapon, the M110 and the M24, all of which weigh about 17 pounds.

Several sources have told Army Times that the Marine Corps has considered the .338 Lapua magnum, an extreme long-range round that is proving increasingly popular with special operations units. The .338 has an effective range of about 1,600 meters.

Marine Lt. Col. Tracy Tafolla, program manager for infantry weapons from the Marine Corps System Command at Marine Base Quantico, Va., acknowledged that the Marine Corps has looked at the .338 along with other heavier calibers, but he said “we are not dictating the caliber” for the long-range sniper rifle program. “It’s performance-based.”

The Marine program is leaving the door open for a weapon that could hit targets out to 1,800 meters, but Benning officials said they are looking at a requirement of 1,500 meters.

“After 1,500 meters, you are going to have problems identifying targets with the optics we have today,” Bell said.

It will likely be about eight months before industry will see a request for proposal for this new system, Tafolla said.

In the meantime, Benning officials are considering a possible reversal of the decision on the M24 and to allow units to carry both it and the M110. For now, units will continue to turn in their M24s when they receive the M110s.

Although it’s still only in the idea phase, Radcliffe said, “what we are talking about, conceptually, is we want to retain the M24 in the sniper team.”

Keeping the M24 would give sniper teams two precision weapons until it could eventually be replaced by the longer-range antipersonnel system, Benning officials said.

There is no timeline for when a decision might be made on the M24, but Radcliffe acknowledged the criticism from many snipers in the Army on the decision to phase out the M24.

Part of the backlash is driven by emotion, Radcliffe said, but that doesn’t make it any less important.

“It’s real, and it is important that we pay attention to that,” Radcliffe said.

Finally, from Sniper Country comes this testimony from Rick Bowcher about the development of the M24. I especially like his anecdote at the end. I have left the spelling in the original intact, under the theory that his meaning is clear and I don't want to unnecessarily anger a man who can kill me at 1500 meters.

Fred - I was on the planning and testing board for the M24. It was in deed designed to change over to 300 Win Mag. The M24 was first designed for SOF only until the regular army got involved. SOTIC built the original prototypes and had General Guest fire them at Camp Butner, NC. By the end of the day he was convinced that the "new sniper rifle" (since M24 wasn't its designation yet) was the way to go. The problem was the fight with Ft. Benning paper shooters. We wanted only a few to be changed over down the road, as a medium range weapon (900 to 1100 meters). Fort Benning wanted them all changed over. This fight continues over 10 years later. In the mid 80s we were still looking at several other rounds, the .338/.416 being one for even longer ranges, the .50 for hard target 800 to 1500 and the 14.5mm for past 1500. The Naby jumped in and muddled the waters with a rapid purchase, of the Barrett. My question was why not the M2 MG for the Navy and EOD since it weights about the same and does the rapid follow on shot, is more durable, and a heck alot more accurate. The .300 has advantages in night sniping as wind is not as critical, and does reach a speck further than the .308. We really wanted something that was more than a baby step past the .308 and was looking at the 300 Win Mag more as a stop gap until more study was made on the bullet issue. I know this will get some noses out of joint so jump in wherever you guys want. Lucky for me I kept copies of all the paperwork that flew about during that deal. SOCOM let Benning in so that they wouldn't foot the whole bill. I think some of the guys at Rock Island still remembers me from when I threw a Pelican case across the room when they were talking about 5 years for the bullet, 3 years for the barrel to match the bullet, and another 5 years to develop the end product. The Pelican case contained one of our guns and I said the civilians buy the dam things on a daily basis.


Anonymous said...

"For example, you can replace the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle for about $4,000, so that it can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round."

$6,700???? Has to be a government contract.

For a barrel & receiver??? FOUR GRAND!?!?!?!?!

The barrel & receiver IS the rifle! Everything else is just support.

Well, I guess if you have that kind of money to throw around, go for it. But if you don't, I know for a fact that civilian shooters can take an "out of the box" Remington 700 Sendero in .300 Win Mag and, after a proper barrel conditioning, with hand loaded match ammo (200 gr Sierra HPBT Match Kings, match primers, properly prepped brass and individually weighed powder charges), put some good glass on it of your choice(10X fixed Mil Dot is my choice), have the trigger tuned, and get some superior performance out to 1000 meters, maybe farther. I've only shot mine at 1,000, so that's all I can talk about.

Real sticklers might have the action trued and polish the feed ramp, follower, and raceways, but you can still get superb performance without all that.

All for a good chunk-a-change less that $4K let alone $6,700!!!

Anonymous said...

There ripping our soldiers off. You can build and sell those rifles up to and including 338 lapua for under $2000, all day long.
As for M110 doubling up, one of the problems is they use the same trigger system as the AR15. The pins that make up the trigger and hammer pivots are weak. Replacing them with the KNS anti-walk pin system will cure it.....mthead

Anonymous said...

What a rip off! The Savage Model 12F could be rechambered for the Remington 300 Ultramag or 300 Weatherby for less than half the $4000 for the rifle and EVERYTHING and you would have a FAR better firearm AND have some change left over. A little heavy but low on recoil and VERY accurate. The 338 Lapua as already mentioned is another great option as well.

Anonymous said...

$6700 is not just for the rifle, it's for the rifle, optics, case, tools, and parts. They paid $6700 for a Sniper Weapon SYSTEM, not just the rifle.

$4000 for just a conversion to .300WM is way too much! The magnum bolts were supplied with the original order, as were the barrels. Somewhere, there's a buttload of .300WM barrels & bolts for the M24 sitting around rusting away.

Anonymous said...

In all this looking at the .300 WM I hate to see the good 'ol .30-06 getting overlooked.

I have a soft spot for the round as I learned to shoot NRA Highpower with an '03-A3 Springfield.

Loaded with 190gr Sierra Match Kings it'll hit quite well out to 1,000 yards and could probably be pressed to 1,200 and that's without dealing with the headaches of a belted magnum.

I personally own a bolt gun based on an .03-A3 in .30-06 that will shoot sub MOA out to 1,000. Or at least that's what I witnessed it do in the hands of a trained sniper. I personally am only good enough to get 1.5 MOA out that far.

The only downside to this tack driver? She weighs 24 pounds.

Anonymous said...

Take a .300RUM case and neck it up to .338. The result is often called the .338 Edge. Pair this with a Savage 10 or 110 in .300 WM that has been rebarreled to .338 (no other mods required), a Choate USS or UVS and good optics and you now have a honest to goodness 1 mile sniper rifle.

Anonymous said...

I have a .340 Weatherby that shoots right at MOA with factory ammo. Not a cheap rifle, but not a Ferrari-priced exotic either. Anything wrong with that?

Anonymous said...

Does this mean that the Obamanoids are going to be coming, not only for my semi-auto "Assault Rifles" and handguns, but also my "sniper rifles" like my M70 Win in .300Win Mag.?

Hey Guys if you haven't read, "Un intended Consequences" by Jo hn R oss, I highly recommend you do so!

DeadCenter said...

Now WHAT IN THE SAM HILL would a police SWAT sniper DO with a 338 LM?!? The big city boys here in Florida admit that they almost NEVER shoot beyond 50-100 yrds, and giving the performance I've personally witnessed of our local cops 'training' at our range, they do well to keep a 2 MOA group at 100 yrds. And similar results are evident at the SWAT games every year.