The Feds accommodate Ammon Bundy and give him his John-Brown-at-Harper's-Ferry moment, and we get to make a choice.
Ammon Bundy Taken Into FBI Custody
Also see: Shots fired, 1 killed in arrest of Oregon militants and An occupier surrenders in Arizona
I am awaiting better intel from the ground out in Burns before commenting further, but a few facts strike me right now:
1. The Feds picked this fight. They apparently suckered Ammon and Co. by having locals invite them to a meeting, intending all along to ambush them at a deliberate road block and to simultaneously take down the occupation site.
2. This was totally unnecessary since the resolve of the occupiers was weakening and they were in negotiations to achieve a peaceable exit. What the hurry was is mystifying to me since the Feds negotiated with the Montana Freemen for 81 days before coming to a peaceful resolution.
3. Our attitude was that as much as we disagreed with Ammon Bundy's choice of targets, tactics, timing and "friends" like the sociopath (and probable Fed provocateur) Ryan Payne, the Feds had a higher duty not to violate the occupiers' due process rights.
4. A sniper's bullet at a pre-planned roadblock is NOT due process.
5. Such an action would not have been done without the sanction of the political leadership in the White House. Therefore we can conclude that this is, once again, the Feds making a show of the Waco logic embodied in Catch 22: "We can do anything you can't stop us from doing. We are the Imperial Feds and you WILL obey us."
6. We need more information and confirmation of what I have written, but it is apparent that the Feds are giving us all a choice.
58 comments:
We do have a choice to make, that is clear. Doctored/altered video/audio may make the rounds in a few days, or it could be legit - but I'm not going to make assumptions to any government released video/audio from the ambush.
This could turn the tide one way or the other. The media (for the most part) is bought and paid for, so they will be useless in the event of a rebuttal by the American Public. This could get really bloody, really quick, or it could fizzle out like so many other events of this sort. It really does depend upon the actions of the Militia Leaders on blogs such as this. What will the 3% do? What will Oathkeepers do? What will independent, smaller units do? There's a lot to be said about staying in your own AO and deal locally, but combining forces and making a "show of force" of our own also has merits, and incidentally, downfalls.
Perilous times my friends. Keep your powder dry.
Iowa
Of course this fight was picked, and of course Obama was behind it.
The point is to prove they can have as many free waco's as they want - and when they choose.
The best move was just to go home. (The Feds)I wrote about it three weeks ago.
So now we get this. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. http://thecivillibertarian.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-intelligent-move-in-oregon-is-to.html
At least 25 percent of the commenters at LaVoy Finicum's Facebook page cheered the shooting.
We are so screwed.
No more free, huh?
I hope no one "chooses" to "answer" the Fed action. The occupiers were freaking idiots. Far as I'm concerned, Feds taking steps to end it on law enforcement terms is fully within their rights and duties. Now, if they jumped the gun and took unneeded offensive action, that's just one more fuck up they will have to answer for, but these occupiers were /are TOOLS.
Conflicting reasons for being there
NO invitation
No dog in the fight
No brain in the skull....
My choice was made a long time ago.
I've written and spoken against them going down this path, but I'll never waver on my response.
this is the same tactic tried at the Sweeney Seige and failed. they tried to get john and rhetta sweeney to come to a negotiation, arrest them both and then take the property. proper scouting of the routes and police stations beforehand (and some help from a few friendly local cops) indicated some sort of set-up.
we changed the site of the negotiations, and only john attended. we doubled the patrols on the property. they called off whatever it is they were going to do.
Good job by the authorities. Kudos.
Keeps the a-holes from destroying federal property and ancient artifacts during a confrontation.
Of course, there's more rats where these came from.
De Oppresso Liber!
If you believe in no first shot, no violence, you will be assassinated by the rabid dogs in power quickly. We need to turn tables on them & import all the guerilla tactics learned to date.
At least till we get enough of the Active military to join us.
"He was reportedly shot Tuesday evening during a shootout when law enforcement officers stopped a group of militants on their way to establish a shadow government in nearby Grant County".
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/lavoy-finicum-the-oregon-militant-beaneath-the-blue-tarp-killed-in-police-shootout-reports/
according to this story they were headed to another county to establish a shadow government. You and I both know what that means ....sovereign citizens. It is my understanding that Bundy was one too. This thing must have been their "op" ....
RIP Robert Finicum. Executed for the high crimes of exercising his 1st amendment rights. May his execution not be soon forgotten.
Oregon Governor Kate Brown was getting impatient and pressuring the feds--one factor regarding timing. Aftermath has included independent journalist Pete Santilli's arrest hours after the Bundy group arrests at the roadblock. In fact he was live reporting in the area for hours including coverage at the locked down hospital as well as out at the roadblocks. During this time he was also attempting to get those at the occupation site to safety. Santilli's coverage of the standoff included damning reporting on the treatment of the Hammonds and the outrageous involvement of the Federal Attorney for Oregon, Amanda Marshall in the Hammonds' resentencing.
Do you really think with all of the fed folks there that the outcome was going to be that they (group) get what they want with no recourse of action ? This was the inevitable end here . They constantly left the main group and ran around for meetings with the feds and reporters and small speeches .They opened themselves up for this so called what others term ambush . They broke some oft he most basic rules of group survival by there own actions . Everyone knows you stay together so this does not occur as your only as strong as your weakest link . They didn't send hundreds of feds up there to talk with equipment to play games and play sit and wait .To me this is a false flag event and many can see through it . It is why the Oathkeepers walked away from it because it just was not right .Bundy that is arrested now has opened himself to basically a term of prison that will be death in prison and now the possible loss of his lands in the future . The longer an even like this goes on the more likely it is that people will die.Now more arrest will come in different states . If your going to do something like this you need to go all the way and it is obvious they were not prepared to do that .In fact i think they were looking for a way out of all of this to get out but it was a case of a little too late . Show is over folks and time to go home .
"One Hundred Heads Life and Casualty Company, how may I direct your call?"
There needs to be dashcam video clearly showing Finicum or Ryan Bundy drew on the officers or this is going to go downhill in a very big hurry. Not that I've enjoyed the status quo but I'd have preferred a more noble hill than Ammon Freaking Bundy. Oh, well (tying bootlaces).
How many, I wonder, are going to wake up this morning, read this news, and gear up for war. If Lavoy did take three shots to the noggin while surrendering, nobody will ever peaceably surrender to any fed again, ever. I hope that sticks in many, many memories for many, many years.
Mike,
Re: #3 above "What the hurry was is mystifying to me".
I think the answer may well be the Governor, it seems she Can't Understand Normal Thinking. (Similar to See you in tea).
Not to make light of the situation, but she started squawking.
My prayers to the victims.
DD
P.S.
Fibs going to have same "over watch" next weekend in Pilson???
Mike,
Did they pull Lon Heriuchi(sp) out of retirement?
Also, can't wait to see comments from our traitor in chief, the pResident.
DD
I am glad it is over. Now let's see what happens with the felons with guns and sealed records. If they walk the lesson should be clear.
To address your points;
1) The Feds likely set this up, but it should surprise no one. It's what they do.
2)Unnecessary yes, but Waco, Ruby ridge and Montana Freemen are all a far off and foggy memory, if remembered at all by the average 'merican. ...and all of those wrongful actions buy feds have been overshadowed by OKC in the mind of most folks.
3) "Our attitude"? Be careful when you speak of people collectively. I disagreed with their tactics and their timing and the "friends" and the lack of planning and their silly religious notions of the Lord speaking to them, but you are correct that their due process rights should have been upheld. then again, we are talking about the feds. When has that ever been a concern for them?
4)Was their a sniper's bullet that took out Finnicum? I don't know. The road block seemed like a typical tactic for arrest. Again it does not surprise me and actually seems like a practical manner to make an arrest. Still, I want to know more if their was a sniper who took out Finnicum.
5)I think it is a non-sequitur to assume that the White House was involved in the decision. We don't know that and frankly speaking, I think most of the alphabet soups gangs act on their own much of the time, because as you say, their attitude is "we can do anything and you can't stop us."
More info is certainly needed, but I am glad it is over. I also believe that this stunt by the Bundy clan and friends has given a lot of bad PR to a movement that was gaining momentum. Let's see how the details shake out.
KPN%
YOU cannot compare this to Waco or Ruby Ridge. The Bundys started this, by taking over the fed property. The Bundys asked for and wanted a fight. The Bundys are thugs. Few know the truth about the Bundys in NV. PLUS the Hammonds told the Bundys to stay home. That is the main and first issue.
Make no mistake, they are testing our resolve. They think we're all just a bunch of blow-hards. I wonder if they're right.
From an MSN artcle:
"Authorities said the new security involves a series of checkpoints along key routes into and out of the refuge, and was made out of an "abundance of caution" to protect the public and law enforcement after the confrontation."
The "checkpoints" are designed to surround the refuge and keep the public at bay so they don't know what happens when Feds move in to exterminate the group.
Not sure if this is 100% correct but it seems LeVoy Finicum was the person killed.
From Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CitizensForConstitutionalFreedom.NEWS/photos/a.1649978758609487.1073741830.1648792115394818/1655534394720590/?type=3&fref=nf
Just to be clear, I am just surmising a possibility here, but when I saw the info on the weaselzippers link, it showed screenshots of "Tweets" that claim Ryan Payne "suffered multiple gunshot wounds".
If true, this doesn't mean he isn't what many have always had good cause for assuming, that he is both a sociopath and a Fed provocateur (though being the former seems to be a prerequisite for the latter).
If not true, this is not the first time, and will certainly not be the last time, the usurpers of the Constitution will create disinformation, as that has been their weapon of choice all along.
Any man knows that dead men tell no tales, and any lawyer worth his sale reads the following statement as guaranteeing the eventual use of the 'Lon Horiuchi' defense in this matter (which is really just the Nazi Nuremberg Defense):
"The FBI had earlier said an individual 'who was a subject of a federal probable cause arrest is deceased.' "
Not a warranted arrest, merely a homicide. And the victim is rendered permanently unable to refute it. That this was pre-planned, including the absence of cameras in the year 2016, should tell everyone everything they need to know about this.
I wish the victims a speedy recovery, and that their rights to due process are not infringed, no matter how stupid I believe their choice to occupy the refuge to be.
Well the Malhuer Massacre did take place and at least we can put away once and for all the tired old chestnut that Americans will not fire upon other Americans.
The articles state that Oregon State Troopers are the ones who fired the shots, not feds. Just for clarification.
Also, who's running the blockade of the BLM property? Is it Feds or State?
"but it is apparent that the Feds are giving us all a choice." ......
...and that choice is: WILL WE BE CITIZENS OR SUBJECTS?
A lethal shot from a civilian-designed, official/LE use only-stamped firearm to coerce a surrender is NOT a "choice"; it's extortion under pain of death!
There is at this point no evidence to support points 1, 4 and 5. I know you would like to believe that those facts are so because it fits within your victim world view. The truth is, they were arrested for breaking the law, something happened (we don't know what) and unfortunately Mr. Finicum was shot. That is too bad because he was a decent man. Now stop spreading false information. Since they were alone on the road you have zero reason to believe most of what you are saying.
They did things they never should have and one of the ground rules is you stay together . You do not take leadership individuals and let them run around thinking they can not be taken away or they untouchable . How do military operations go ? You take out leadership and cause disarray and then finish the clean up operation . Did you really think with over 200 federal and state folks and Armour vehicles that this was going to end up in there best favor . People need to get real and now it is real.
Will there be the showdown or the back down with the rest of them in the federal building ? It will be the back down dragged out a bit for maximum media attention and then more arrest made and its over .
Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore said Ammon Bundy called his wife, Lisa Bundy, from the back of a police car on Tuesday night and said Finicum was cooperating with police when he was shot, according to The Oregonian.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/
Media reports about the incident simply state that “shots were fired,” although Finicum’s daughter Thara Lynn Tenney posted a message on her Facebook page last night asserting that her father had already surrendered before he was gunned down.
“I want the world to know how my father was murdered today. His hands were in the air and he was shot in the face by the American authorities. Ammon Bundy reported there are 6 witnesses to this evil,” wrote Tenney.
Her testimony was echoed by another eyewitness, Victoria Sharp, who was in the car with Finicum when the group were pulled over by cops and federal agents.
Sharp claims that Finicum put his hands out of the car window and asked the police to allow the women to leave the car.
“They shot at him, but they missed him,” said Sharp, adding that the group then attempted to drive away in the car but were shot at again by police.
“When we crashed and stopped for a second, he got out of the car, he had his hands in the air, he’s like ‘just shoot me then’….and they did, they shot him dead,” said Sharp.
“He was just walking, with his hands in the air, I swear to God, and they shot him dead and after he was down on the ground, shot him three more times,” said Sharp, adding that the vehicle was again “bombarded with bullets” as well as tear gas rounds.
Sharp says that the group tried to “find something white” so they could display it as a sign of surrender. She challenges news reports that only six shots were fired, asserting, “they shot at least 120 shots altogether.”
Sharp also claims that none of the individuals in the car pulled out a gun at any point and that the incident was an “ambush” with “FBI snipers in the trees” surrounding the vehicle.
“They had their hands out of the window to show they were not firing, nothing, we showed no aggression at all,” said Sharp.
http://www.infowars.com/eyewitness-oregon-militiaman-murdered-by-cops-he-had-his-hands-in-the-air/
Here's my analysis:
http://the-other-side-of-history.blogspot.com/2016/01/on-ammon-bundy-and-events-in-oregon.html
What was the hurry? Corrupt Kate Brown Gov. Of OR said last week she wanted this finished. The people really started to dog dirt up on judge Grasly and the communities started standing up. The gov't didn't lie competitor.
I wonder if Mr. Finicum had a policy with 100 Heads Life and Casualty Insurance Company?
I demand to see the police dashcam footage.
Where's the dashcam footage.
Perhaps “eliminating” a dangerous leader was the important purpose. Whack one little monkey and the rest will behave.
Not so much the Waco solution as Ruby Ridge. Some men are just too dangerous to let them get in a courtroom.
I don't know where the info came from, but one person commented on the story at Wapo, said the Oregon State police was the party who shot Finicum. Another story claimed he "charged" the police, while another claimed "he was on the ground with his hands in the air". At this point...who knows.
Hopefully the Oathkeepers standing as a "buffer" will not turn tail and run as they did in NV.
This is fed payback for the Bundy ranch fiasco. I expect the feds to Waco the remaining protesters.
After that, it's our turn.
Pure propaganda. With a side of anti federal spin. NOT the way to gain or maintain credibility.---Ray
Also. The convoy was on its way to John dau, or. That's in Grant county and had a sympathetic sheriff. The FBI knows if they left Grant co sheriff wouldn't let the feds touch them. This WAS their one chance.
Here's the local coverage:
http://www.oregonlive.com/oreg...
The comments are sickening. The Portlanders are out in force and howling with glee. So many people with closed minds who don't know the history of the area that are -- not upset, nor relieved, but sadomasochistically HAPPY that a man engaged in peaceful armed protest in the middle of nowhere got shot to death by his own government. Transexuals or illegal aliens or hood rats or misogynistic Muslims would -- and do -- get more sympathy.
I was prepared for the hate and scorn and ridicule, but not the bloodthirsty joy. Broad swathes of our society are stoned on the same narcotic as the Germans were in the 1930's. they clamor for our deaths. The thought makes them giddy. The government can exercise an iron hand at every level and they will crow and applaud.
I am sick and sad at heart today.
The really strange thing here is the charge that they used. It is an old Law from the 1800's involving the KKK. The Act that codified it was the KKK act.
The purpose of this section was to prevent people who were enforcing court orders from being beat up or killed.
Yet here we are years later and what seems to be a civil rights (Life, Liberty and property) complaint that should have been settled in court, being enforced using a law that was meant to protect people doing just what they are doing.
The only part of that act that could possibly be used is the taking of federal property by force. Yet, no force was ever used.
Choice made.
So much for all that Oafkeeper nonsense.
The difference was that the Montana freeman had the support of the local Sheriff who made sure the FBI behaved. The character of local lawmen makes all the difference.
"This was totally unnecessary since the resolve of the occupiers was weakening and they were in negotiations to achieve a peaceable exit. What the hurry was is mystifying to me since the Feds negotiated with the Montana Freemen for 81 days before coming to a peaceful resolution."
Could it be that BECAUSE it was winding down, the scenario became "necessary?"
Lavoy Finicum shot with hands in the air. Car riddled with bullets, no shots fired by Occupier caravan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y92PvMFL0Eg
This girl was in the vehicle. The LEOs fired indiscriminately into the vehicle. It is a miracle more weren't hit.
THINK about this........... When is enough, enough?????
Awful lot of pissed off Americans today. It does appear, according to an eyewitness account, that an American citizen was Wacoed for the heinous crime of disagreeing with the politburo.
Of course, if Mr. Finicum had been of a certain other ethnicity, I'm sure there would be some serious "civil disobedience" brewing tonight, and in the numerous nights ahead. But, if that were to occur under current circumstances, there probably won't be any "crossover of impunity" afforded to rightly angered Americans who might engage in a show of "public emotion".
As for why the feds felt it necessary to go all Tactical Timmy at this time; perhaps it was from all the bitching done on the part of the demo-cretin governor and a local judge, who no doubt caught the sympathetic ear of a syphilitic hermaphrodite in the District of Criminals.
The "Infamous They" have got to be thinking; if this doesn't garner a response... nothing will.
MikeH.
A Geriatric Threeper On A High Boil
I am actually quite proud of the greater citizen militia for not going off the rails and getting the rest of us into a fight on questionable grounds. If we have to fight, we do so on our terms in a manner that is clearly recognizable by all as THE line in the sand. It cannot be ambiguous or built on otherwise questionable precepts or personalities.
Molon Labe, motherfuc*$@# feds.
The person killed was another rancher I guess ...LaVoy Finicum (tarp man). He had declared himself a "Free Man" and asserted that he would not surrender to be arrested. I am going to hold my thoughts on what I assume happened. According to an article below they were on their way to another county to establish a "Shadow Government".
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eyewitnesses-knock-down-conspiracy-theories-about-lavoy-finicum-dying-with-his-hands-up/
We can only hope that the demand for answers and accountability goes viral.
http://stopshouting.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-open-letter-to-special-agent-greg.html
The Feds have turned a protest into a military conflict.
It was poor planning on the part of the protesters to not seriously prepare for what they all had to know was going to happen eventually.
But the fact remains, the Feds have unambiguously turned this into a military conflict. We can choose our tactics going forward, but we cannot go back and choose to turn military conflict into protest.
We kill them until they have no more power to inflict tyranny on us.
Then we try the survivors for war crimes and hang them.
The exact methods will differ according to particular circumstances. I've so far been disappointed by the lack of enemies willing to come to me, so I'm evaluating options to go to them. But there is no more talking to them.
Food for thought: at a minimum, this raises the price of poker by increasing tensions in the freedom community. I have long thought that Obama has a nasty parting gift for the country in this Presidential election year (2008 surprises worked so well for him, why not run the same play for another purpose?) and having the 3% on edge and ready to defend, perversely, could give him another arrow in his quiver. Think of some recent, high-social-stress incidents/responses that were all deliberately stoked by external actors but petered out after a while like, Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Mater, Trayvon Martin, etc. Individually, neither amounts to much but if viewed as small dry runs in order to mobilize and build a motivated force to cause a lot of damage and havoc at the right time, it looks powerfully destructive. All war is economic. Get us on edge and it won't take much for Obama to light us off so he could have an even greater crisis that he most assuredly will not let go to waste.
Is anyone arguing that BLM *ISN'T* exercising authority it does not actually hold under the constitution?
If you admit that fact, then as poorly planned as this "protest" was....the underlying complaint was legitimate.
And a man was shot and killed over it. Let that sink in a minute.
No one has said he drew a weapon....one allegation is that he "charged" at the police.
Anyone see the docu-drama, John Adams? The Boston "Massacre" was adjudicated self-defense and rightly so, since a mob armed with clubs and rocks was assaulting the Red Coats when the shooting started. That event still helped spark a revolution, albeit years later.
The point is: No More Free Wacos is proving to be HOT AIR. This post isn't a call to arms, it's a call to reality. I still have too much to lose to do what needs to be done....unless it directly affects me or mine. And I'll wager most are sitting behind the computer thinking the same thing (as evidenced by a lack of assassinated government officials hitting the newsfeed). Let's at least be honest with ourselves about what this all means. No one thinks it's time yet. That doesn't mean we don't have a 5 year wait ahead before the balloon goes up. Prepare and train.
"The point is: No More Free Wacos is proving to be HOT AIR"
no, it's not. WACO was a siege not of their own making. you can't "make your own" by seizing something, and daring people to come and get you. the 2 are not the same.
No More Free Wacos wasn't simply about siege mentality. It was the government doesn't get free reign to off citizens in these type of events without due process.
Is it your argument that the BLM is legitimate in its authority in spite of what the constitution says on the matter?
Every American has an absolute Constitutionally protected right to peaceful protest of injustices perpetrated by the government in all areas which are administered by that government and open to the public, like that wildlife refuge center.
It isn't their own property in the same way as their own property (for instance, on their own property they would have the right to forcibly eject counter-protesters or hostile media). But for purposes of exercising their own First Amendment rights it is very nearly theirs, and certainly the rights are theirs.
To deny those rights by violence is every bit as bad as to seize their personal property...worse by some lights.
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