Bloomberg tries to explain why New York's finest gun down innocent bystanders. Isn't this what Bloomberg said would happen if civilians packed heat?
But. . . but . . . they were official government employees. That's not supposed to happen.
A women's accessories designer fatally shot a vice president of the company that laid him off near the Empire State Building Friday, causing a chaotic showdown with police in front of one of the world's best-known landmarks. Police killed the suspect and at least nine others were wounded, some by stray police gunfire, city officials said. . .
The two officers fired a total of 14 rounds at Johnson, Kelly said. Mayor Michael Bloomberg said some of the nine wounded may have been shot by police in the mayhem. Johnson's semi-automatic weapon was equipped to fire at least eight rounds; at least one round was left in the clip, police said. Another loaded magazine was in his briefcase.
19 comments:
According to media reports the original gunman fired three of eight into the murder victim and was found with one round in the magazine once the shooting stopped, meaning he spent four rounds shooting at other people. The maximum number of people, assuming one bullet per wounded person, that he shot after the initial murder is then four. So is the second group of gunmen (referred to in the article as 'police') responsible for an additional five wounded, effectively shooting more people after the initial murder than the gunman himself?
NYPD issues Glocks and Smiths with a custom extra-heavy trigger pull, ostenibly to reduce negligent discharges.
An overly long, heavy pull might do that, but it can also negatively affect accuracy, too.
I fired an NYPD Smith a couple of days ago... like most Smiths, nice smooth trigger, but way too much effort...
Il Duche just keeps on putting his foot in his mouth.
One of the news stories indicated that Johnson shot Ercolino in the head once then stood over him and fired 4 more rounds into the body for a total of five rounds.
Reports also say that after the police seized Johnson's pistol it was found that either 1 or 2 rounds (this number has varied) were still in the magazine. this accounts for 6 or 7 rounds.
One round would have remained in the chamber for a total of either 7 or 8 rounds. This would indicate that if Johnson did fire at the police he was able to get only one round off which would have been insufficient to have caused injuries to nine bystanders.
Depending upon which story one reads the police fired 14-16 rounds on a sidewalk crowded with bystanders and hit Johnson with only 5-6 rounds. I understand that the officers believed that the were fighting for their lives and were justified in shooting Johnson, however they are also responsible for any injuries they may have caused to innocent bystanders. That just goes with the territory.
[W3]
The true terrorists these days are the federal government - William Grigg dares to mention the phrase "PATCON" in his article on lewrockwell this weekend when discussing OKC.
http://lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w276.html
Most recent reports: killer did not fire his weapon at all after shooting his initial target. All 9 bystanders were shot by cops. Encounter occured at approx. 15' between cops and killer.
I read an AP article yesterday....guy had a gun that held 7 rounds of .45 acp.....probably a 1911.....so, since the media doesn't understand 7+1....he probably had 8 rounds total.
He had a full mag found in his briefcase. By every witness account, he shot his victim once to the head initially, and stood over the body while pumping 4 more rounds in him.
After the police shot him, one round was in the chamber, and one in the mag....so he fired likely 6 shots. Police claim he fired at them (though the article said there was no ballistic evidence to back that up).....for the benefit of the doubt, I think he likely did fire one additional shot (based on the capacity of the weapon with one in the chamber).
In any case, NINE people were wounded. The police fired (conflicting reports) 13 to 16 rounds. One of the shooting victims said they knew 100% for certain that they were shot BY police. Another said, the police shot him (didn't include a percentage of his certainty, LOL). So much for the "only ones" theory that Bloomberg's been pushing. LOL ::) :duh: So much for "total" gun control in NYC.....guy bought the gun legally in '91 in Florida and had no permit in NY. Can you guys believe it? He just IGNORED an edict from his masters? How DARE he. ::)
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jjDMV68v7lWoHRJ5gEUSxOrLbVgw?docId=b2139848dc61417ab2c32e140f87dee5
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EMPIRE_STATE_BUILDING_SHOOTING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-24-11-49-15
Sean
My brother is a retired police sergant formerly with a large department here in S. FL. One of his postings was to our police academy where he taught at the firing range. According to him, many (I hesitate to say most without posting a link to back it up) police officers never fire their service weapon except a "tune up" period just before they re-qualify. And many of them just barely pass.
The bottom line is that to many cops, their service pistol is a part of their uniform that they are really not all that familiar or competent with. It is not all that uncommon to read stories of multiple cops emptying their mags with dozens of rounds fired and the suspect hit only once or twice. Where do all those other rounds go? In some cases they go into other cops or as in this case into civilians who just happened to be in the way.
This article states 5 rds used on victim one in mag an one ejected on unload by PD. so that leaves only one he could have fired at anybody else
Hmmm, AP updated the story while I was reading it. Completely different story now. And the one I was reading before was obviously different from what you'd copied here.
Spinning spiders . . .
-JRM
All this discussion of pistol capacity and rounds expended misses a point - there is no reported count of expended brass found on scene. Also, many do not "top off" their magazine after chambering a round, especially if all they ever expected to use their weapon was at a range. If the magazine has a seven round capacity, then probably one was in the chamber and six were in the magazine. If this guy expected to shoot anyone else, he would have already swapped out to the fresh magazine. Instead, he just walked away to be lost in the crowd. His plan was thwarted by the unarmed construction workers who dared to follow the gunman instead of scattering.
As non-police, we get told that we are responsible for the effects of any round we discharge. If a non-police officer fired on this guy and wounded several bystanders, we know what sort of nonsense would be uttered by Bloomberg.
It is time to end the double standard and acknowledge that even with more training, magical results do not happen. Allow and expect everyone without physical or mental handicap to carry that wants to, but expect that only police officers on duty must carry. Encourage marksmanship and crisis decision making training for all, not just those who wear a badge. As a society, we encourage the training in skills such as CPR and basic first aid. For the more fit, swimming and lifesaving training is encouraged and available. We must acknowledge that we are all "first responders", that we cannot afford to wait for designated individuals, and act accordingly.
All you folks are assuming the "7+1" for a total of 8 rounds.
We all know the mechanics of the 1911 - personally I do not believe he went through all the BS to gain back that one extra round, nor do I believe he would carry it "cocked and locked" -- ergo there's just no way he had more than 7 rounds.
As someone above noted, 5 into his victim and 2 left means the "only ones" hit **NINE** innocent people at a range of ~15 feet, or 5 yards.
I'm willing to bet that **ANY** of us would have ZERO problems putting every round in the brain-pan at that range!
We really need to beat the drum on this case to show all the sheeple just how "trained" those "only ones" **REALLY** ARE!!
PS:
"5 rds used on victim one in mag an one ejected on unload by PD."
So that leaves **ZERO** that could have hit anyone else!
The "only ones" shot NINE INNOCENTS!!
Anon0741- your brother is right. My old department qualified once a year, up to three strings of fire or recycle for training, on one, two, three, or four weapons.
First and second strings were shot with a group, third string was fired with an instructor. Very rarely did anyone fail to qualify on their third string of fire.
Rumor was that they qualified with a Skilcraft rather than a Smith & Wesson. That was, of course, just a rumor.
I always qualified first string and then went to the training buildung to cook lunch.
All this time I was under the impression that Kathryn Johnston tagged her assailants THREE TIMES before dying of exsanguinating circumstances . But it would appear that they in fact did shoot each other .
I can see how that could have been even more embarrassing than simply shooting a 92 year old woman on a BS warrant .
Over 25+ years I taught 100's of police and correctional officers how to use a firearm to punch holes into a paper target. I honestly believe that an average ten year old can be taught in less than an hour how to shoot well enough with a handgun to shoot a "qualifying" score on the range.
What I'm trying to say is, many police and correctional officers who go to the range and shoot a qualifying score are LESS qualified to carry and use a firearm than are many non-"only ones" which would include that 10 year old I mentioned earlier.
From all indications, Johnson shot only his intended victim. The "only ones" on the other hand shot a bunch of folks that by happenstance included their intended target.
It appears that the powers that be in NYPD need to rethink their firearm training program to include more than just the mechanics of pointing and shooting.
Of course that will require that they spend a hell of a lot of money and time they may be unwilling to invest.
[W3]
@ Anon 25 Aug 9:06PM.
A 1911 magazine has a capacity of only 7 rounds. If Johnson placed a loaded magazine into his pistol and didn't chamber a round, then remove the magazine and top it off (which he probably didn't do) he didn't fire any rounds at anyone other than his intended victim.
Please understand I'm not suggesting that Johnson was in any way justified in what he did nor am I faulting the police for killing him.
[W3]
Yep - definately a 'mass' shooting ... by NY's finest!
The perp shoots one - and Bloomberg's Boys hit the rest.
If the dear NY Mayor was serious about gun control he would now disarm the NY Boys in Blue - wouldn't he?
[sarcasm off]
Meanwhile in the other Victim Disarmamnet Capital - Chicago.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/26/13480793-6-dead-at-least-a-dozen-wounded-in-less-than-24-hours-in-chicago
Chicago has seen a rise in homicides this month.
Nineteen people were shot late Thursday and early Friday, NBCChicago.com reported. Thirteen of those were shot over a 30-minute period.
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