My thanks to Yenta for bringing these videos to my attention.
Religion and nationalism is a dangerous patch of ground, but here are a few clarifying comments about where I stand.
I am a Christian. While I am not a literalist when it comes to the Bible (various translations and edits over the millennia all being done by fallible men) I believe that the Jews were and are God's Chosen people. I believe that they have an integral part in God's plan for us all.
I am an amateur historian. Over the years I've read probably hundreds of books on the Diaspora, Zionism, the Holocaust, Palestine, the 1947 Partition (another great example of what the UN can do for world peace -- eyes rolling) and the subsequent wars.
I'd like to think that I'm no fool, either. Many of those who participated in the founding of Israel embraced a socialist ideology. Atrocities have been committed in the name of the defense of Israel -- Deir Yassin and the attack on the USS Liberty are two stellar examples.
And yet . . . Israel never rejected capitalism and free enterprise. Israel is a western democracy that (largely) recognizes and protects the rights of minorities within its borders. Does it have its religious extremists and bigots? Yes. Do they insist that you convert or they will cut off your head? No.
Neither we nor the Jews chose where the Jews made their Homeland, God did. After centuries of pogroms and Holocaust at the hands of Western and Eastern Europe -- democracies, monarchies and dictatorships -- I cannot blame them for wanting a country of their own where they control their own destiny, for good or ill. It is a tough neighborhood filled with armed people who wish them and all their lineage driven into the Mediterranean. As they look around the world from that small sliver of land with its back to the sea, they see few allies and no reliable ones.
Every now and then, people drop missiles into their civilian neighborhoods, blow up their markets with suicide bombs and massacre their children in their elementary schools. Do the Palestinians have grievances? Absolutely. Should the Palestinians have a place of their own? Certainly.
But here is the terrible consequence, the bitter cup of defeat -- the Muslim Palestinians and the surrounding Arab powers tried to expunge the Jewish state in 1947 and several times since and failed. They bid on throwing the Jews into the sea and killing and expelling them and they lost. Deir Yassin had its Arab counterparts. The Israelis, fresh from the bitter lessons of Holocaust, knew it was fight or die. They fought, and won. Everything since then flows from that fact.
Should they then have lost? Would that be morally acceptable to Israel's critics in this country? Helen Thomas, the "grand dame" of the White House press corps, apparently thinks so.
But the present situation, like every other crisis since 1947, is not really about the Palestinians who are and have been just pawns on a greater chessboard. First the Soviets then in turn the Eqyptians, the Syrians, the Iraqis, the Saudis and now the Iranians -- each have used the Palestinian cause to further their own agenda. And in the case of the Shia Milleniallists in Iran, the massive military support they give to Hezbollah and Hamas has but one aim -- the ignition of the final conflict that they believe will herald the return of the Twelfth Imam. They have but to stack up enough bodies to do so, much as the Hitlerian pagans believed that the Holocaust would open up the gates of Valhalla and Odin, Thor and all the other Norse biker gods would come roaring out.
Watching the second video, it is evident that the sons and daughters of Shem, Ham and Japheth may never be able to live peacefully together.
Messianic Islam is the Borg of present day religions -- join or die. The Christian church certainly went through its Borg period -- "Kill them all my son. God will know his own." -- where fallible men and grasping nation states used religion for their own aggrandizement. We have ceased doing so centuries ago. The auto de fe' is no longer practiced. The Spanish Inquisition is the subject of classic British comedy. Any Danish cartoonist can tell you that Muslim religionists have not yet discovered the ability to be so secure in their faith that they can suffer comedy without violence.
The fact is that we live in the here and now and Islam has not, perhaps cannot, discard its cannibal army business model. The fact is that Israel exists and its enemies wish it expunged. Can this ever be reconciled short of Christ coming again?
I doubt it.
But until that time, I for one will not reject Israel's right to exist, as flawed as that existence might be when viewed from the safe distance of thousands of miles away.
And consider this, ye moral equivalency advocates. Israel has had the Bomb for what, 40 or so years now, right? They have never used it, though they are now estimated to own hundreds. Does anyone think that the Millennialists who run Iran will not use theirs shortly after they get it? On Israel or us, "the Great Satan?"
Mike
III
27 comments:
Well said.
One other point -- without Judaism, there is no Judeo-Christian ethos to underpin Western Civ as we know (knew?) it. Although not absolutely essential to the interrelated concepts of individual freedom and individual responsibility, the Jewish Decalogue is part of the lineage of the Declaration of Independence and thus America itself.
I stand with the Jews, and I stand with Israel.
Mike, your entire post here is little more than Zionist agitprop, it's unworthy of your talents.
Oh, once the Jews rejected Christ their period of being "the chosen people" ended.
Your support for Israel is based on their status as "chosen people", and capitalism? "Chosen" is a fine status for someone to give themselves, which is what they did since they wrote the books, and doesn't sound at all like "master race", no, not one bit. And how is capitalism the same as free trade? Capitalism is corporatism, which is fascism, which is what we have running half the world or better now, and why people are slaves to corporate machines.
I agree with Pat. Zionism is racial supremacism, plain and simple.
Right on Mike.
Right on Mike.
Actually, no, God does not end His covenants, Pat. The Scriptures are filled with teachings of that principle. And Mike is, as always, well versed and solidly grounded in his grasp of this.
There is no need to put down a laundry list of those Scriptures as they are numerous.
IN general, though this is not directed at yourself ad hominem, the only people who seek to define when God's covenants have ended, thus saving Him the trouble, are either blatant or latent anti-Semites for one reason or another.
If the so-called Palestinians of muslime ancestry were in such deep need, and if the entire demonic cult of death calling itself 'islam' was as devoted and compassionate to its wretched adherents, then you would not find the oil sheiks living in wealth beyond measure, owning fleets of dozens of automobiles worth millions, and fleets of private jets worth billions, as their poor Palestinian brethren eat roadkill rodents over camel shit fires; a quick glance at any map will show that the Arabs have enough empty and habitable lands to accommodate all of their suffering Palestinian brethren, as well as their wretched muslime brethren from all the diseased hell-holes around the world, in spacious splendor.
Other than blind, satanic hatred of the Jews, there is no reason at all for the muslime filth to tear their hair, wrap their youth in explosive belts and call on the name of their false god, hoping to murder a race of people and possess the tiny patch of land that the Jews call home.
God has made His choices and spoken plainly. Those who bless Israel will be blessed of God; those who curse Israel, cursed. I do not delude myself that all the Jews in Israel are wonderful individuals, or that all are devout and godly. But if those were requirements for His acceptance of us, then all of us who humbly call ourselves Christians would have been forsaken millennia ago.
MIKE - well said, well done, and Ooohrah!
To the other Anon you might like living in Israel because it's socialsiit state sounds like a good fit for you. Thanks for missing the essence of captalism which is free choice in ecomic action and confusing it with our state run mercantalism. I might disagree with Mike on how free Israel is economically speaking but do agree with him on the rest of his points.
Mike did a great job at expressing how I see Israel. I don't like Gaza treatment but the Jews in Israel have been scorned by pretty much everbody including Christians during the Crusades. It's fight or die for them. Helen is a crazy leftist nut job but expresses the administration's view very well.
I'll stand with Israel against the tyranny of Islam any day.
Cory
All this "chosen people" stuff is just nonsense. Everybody has a right to continue breathing, and that implies they have to do it somewhere. The question is always "where?".
Political decisions always involve somebody getting screwed. In 1948, it was the Palestinians' turn.
Now, if you look at a map of the area, it's pretty plain that 'Israel' is small potatoes. Seizing all that land to give back to the Palestinians won't do much for the Palestinians, but that's not the point. It would do major damage to the Jews -- THAT'S the point.
If the rest of the Arab/Muslim/whatever world were all that concerned with the welfare of the Palestinians, I'm sure they could find 2,000 or 3,000 square miles of otherwise-unused land to carve out a 'Palestinian homeland'. They're not doing that because giving the Palestinians a place to breathe air is not the point. They want the Jews to STOP breathing air.
Given that the Pal's had that land for 1700 years (and did squat with it) before the Jews took it back (and turned it into a garden), I also have to side with the Jews.
Born a skeptic here.
I wonder at what point the Judeo
part of Judeo-Christian values got inserted into the state supplied
nanny state textbooks.
Fusion
I am not anti-Jew or anti-Israel. But really folks, we need to get our OWN house in order.
Being a III per is no license to worry about SOMEONE ELSE'S tyrants when you are living under the thumb of your VERY OWN domestic tyrants.
Do any of you entertain the thought that Israel is concerned about US and expelling the tyrants that we Americans are living under? Israel will do what is good for her without any of your consent or approval. Israel could care less that you are all serf's, peons, slaves ... and regardless of whatever you or the tyrants YOU ALL live under ... she will continue to do what she thinks is best for her own interests.
How can our own interest of unshackling ourselves from our own tyrants ever manifest itself if our eyes are all on the forest of everyone elses tyrants and not on the tree of eradicating our own tyrants?
"Zionist" is not a code for "Jew hate", and anyone who calls a critic of Zionism or the State of Israel an "anti-Semite" is as silly -- and technically fallacious -- as the liberal who yells "racist" at someone who opposes illegal immigration.
Zionism is a long-standing ideology with a known, arguably racist, content. While it's original orientation was left-wing, antiwar.com's Justin Raimondo has done some magisterial work, as recently as two days ago, documenting Zionism's fascist turn under more Asiatic influences:
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/06/01/the-mediterranean-massacre/
A former dispensationalist myself, I got cured of that heretical disease with the assistance of a theological education. There is simply no reason to believe, none whatsoever, that any biblical prophecy has anything to do with the *current* State of Israel.
The foregoing, along with the fact that the presence of State of Israel does not serve ONE American vital national interest IMO, propels me away from a neocon orientation. That's why I'm with those paleocon righties Buchanan, Scheuer, Raimondo, Bovard, Bacevich, those types of guys.
Not to metion with a whole host of Jewish Israeli lefties like Shlaim and Levy, who see Zionism for what it is.
Accordingly, I **stand with America** (well, as originally conceived, anyway), not with Israel, or with any other Middle Eastern nation for that matter. When the Zionists muscled into Palestine with the assistance of the Western powers, they surely weren't fool enough to expect a rad carpet. That effectively put them in a state of war with the Arab world, a state of war which continues to this day. Our support of Israel in that ongoing war has only cost us, mainly in terms of what Chalmers Johnson calls "blowback."
It's accordingly time to stop being Israel's financial and military Sugar Daddy. Wish them well, yes, especially now that they are the regions's only nuclear power. But we must quit being their enabler, whatever romantic notions we have about them that have resulted from our errant theologies.
By right of conquest, Israel has once again carved itself a homeland in Palestine. Christendom, however, should understand that Israel does not recognize their own Redeemer.
The God of Israel does not personally know how it feels to be tempted; to know joy, to suffer cold, hunger, sorrow, pain and death. Their god does not know how it is to be human. The God of Christendom does. Thus, the god of Israel more resembles Allah than the Trinity.
Christendom should therefore beware of Israel and its corrupting influence. Our Creator has used them to bring us salvation, and has sworn to protect those of their race who accept Him. We in Christendom must do our best therefore not to persecute them or support their wars, but to bring them to accept our Creator as He now is. To fail at this is to find ourselves doomed as fools, useful tools in the hands of the lost.
I have mixed feelings when it comes to Israel. I am a Christian, but I am also of Jewish descent. Because of this I have been called a mamzer by Pharisees (Orthodox) and have even been threatened.
Be that said, Israel has a major part to play in these last days before the return of Yahushua, and I have to support it over the purely pagan adherents of Islam.
So Dakota, you support terrorism and genocide then? How very patriotic of you! Too bad you couldn't have lived half a century earlier so you could have been in the SS or Einsatzgrupen, or maybe the NKVD.
Mike,
I take issue with a couple of things here;
#1--"God's chosen people"
As a Christian do you not hold that it is by grace through faith that you are entered into the Kingdom? There is no chosen people to my understanding.
#2-- Deir Yassin and the USS Liberty incident(which few know of and has never been addressed but summarily swept under the carpet)add the continued and repeated acts of spying against the U.S. and the sway that the State of Israel holds over our congress through such organizations as AIPAC...I object when Mexico's Calderon comes to tell us how we should conduct our affairs. Why should we tolerate it from Israel?
#3--"control their own destiny"...well let them do that without U.S. money and military backing.
With "friends" like Israel who needs enemies.
Bear in mind that their nukes were never inspected, they never submitted to any non-proliferation treaties and continue to scoff at the notion of adhering to any standards that most every other country, save N. Korea, for example, adhere to under the banner of being part of the global community.
And to Dakota:
classic; whenever anyone challenges the policy of Israel or questions the notion of a chosen people they are immediately called anti-Semitic/Jew hater.
Your "sea of glass" comment just speaks volumes about your position and not in a good way.
It is this shrill level of dialogue that prevents any type of meaningful progress.
Apparently some of you are what would be categorized as "Christian-Zionists". That is to say you buy into the stupid notion that in order for the second coming to occur we must support the State of Israel even if it means a nuclear blood bath.
I say shame on you all.
Israel means when the say "Never again". If they are to eventually be eliminated, they will take millions with them and make the entire area uninhabitable for millenia.
And rightfully so.
Pat H., what the Hell is wrong with you? Can you not see, can you not read. Israel has been under unremitting attack since its inception. Israel has defeated all its enemies who engaged her militarily, yet has not destroyed the defeated nations, nor even punished them severely.
Israel does not strap bombs to their own children in order to kill Arabs. Israel does send rockets into neighborhoods, as she should because that is where their cowardly attackers fire on them from, while using the neighborhoods, its children and adults as "human shields". Knowing that if Israel does not strike at them because of their shielding they can kill her. If Israel does strike at them, then idiots such as yourself, will claim Israel is wrong to not just lay down and die.
Israel would be justified to completely destroy her enemies on no further provocation, yet they always use a measured response. A mindset that I believe is wrong. I advocate destroying one's implacable enemy. Especially in the case of Israel who has offered everything the other sides claim they want in pursuit of peace. Only to have the offers rejected, even though they were offered at their asking.
The other tactic used by Israel's enemies is to accept certain offers, such as the return of honorably war-won land, thus giving up her "buffer" zone. Only to have those returned lands become bases for attacks by rocket and explosive infiltrators on herself.
So, I reapeat, what the Hell is wrong with you?
Excellent post, Mike, and a good example of why I've been a regular reader here for over a year.
You Israel defenders:
Mike mentioned the USS Liberty.
What will you do with that one, I wonder, save say that the "official" investigations cleared the State of Israel?
Which, if you do, some of will have some data to shove right up your asses.
Tvarisch, June 5, 2010 11:31 AM:
King David Hotel. USS Liberty.
Boom.
I agree with Brutus' comment above. I have to admit I can't side with either one. Both advocate terror acts to get what they desire. Israel had its own share of terrorism, setting off bombs, etc., when the British were still there to establish "their" homeland. Now after taking over Palestine, the Palestinians are doing the same to the Israelis to get their land back... Which kettle is calling which kettle black?
I say let's do what George Washington recommended and not getting into any entanglements but treat everybody with the respect that we ourselves would like everyone else treating us. When we take sides we are more likely to alienate someone else leading to their hatred of us.
Let's seize our moral high ground first by getting our country, our freedom back and return America to the beacon of liberty that it once was. Lead by example and let others emulate.
Nguyen
III
"United Nations, 1947, Resolution 181 approves the creation of Israel, the Jewish State
IsraPundit has an excellent article on UN resolution 181 that brought into existence the State of Israel. United Nations General Assembly resolution 181 called for the partition of the British-ruled palestine mandate into a Jewish State and an Arab State."
A Collectivist group of God hating commies(the UN) created Israel. However, maybe it was God inspired, then again, maybe it was not. Even if it were(God inspired), I still have lots of things to do here in the US. Like buying ammo, getting in shape, and training. Hhhmmm, such a divisive post. Whats your next post going to be about - how we should have nuked Iraq? Irving, is that you in there...?
Lord Bertrand Russell addressing an international conference in 1970, wrote the following:
"The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was ‘given’ by a foreign power to another people for the creation of a new state.
The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers increased.
How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty?
It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict.
No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate?"
"The principle holds that no citizen loses his property or his rights of citizenship and the citizenship right is de facto a right to which (Palestinians in Israel) have much more legitimacy than the Jews....
If all nations would suddenly claim territories in which their forefathers lived two thousands years ago, this world would be a madhouse."
From persecuted to persecutors in the blinking of an eye."
Brodude muslim guy at the very end of the second video is hilarious and sad.
I know how to solve this issue,people. Give Britain back to Rome, France back to Germany, America back to, well, all the indigenous tribes. Spain back to the Moors, you get the idea. Let's continue to ignore reality and torture it to unrecognizable shapes while claiming it is the shape of principle.
Let's apologize to Japan and return its Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.
Yeah,yeah, I know, someone will say that all those suggestions above do not recognize the original and/or intermediate owners of said lands. So What??? We're ignoring reality here remember. Oh and while we're at it, let's return the Palestinians to their original state of statelessness, not even welcome in other Arab and/or Muslim lands.
See how easy it is once empty your mind of anything resembling thought?
Everybody displaced by this can just commit suicide.
Fortunately, I and my wife have enough native heritage that we may be acceptable to reclaim our lands. The rest of you sonsofbitches, GET OUT!
God! I love unreality.
Well at least we can say that we have had a lively discussion.
A couple of things grab me ... we still have a few that read the "Spotlight" and that we can agree on nothing.
What was the name of that survivalist group in Idaho again....
One key point. The Palestinians are allies if not the progenitors/prototype of our primary foreign enemy Al-Qaeda or as Mark Levin so accurately describes the the larger mass of them the Islamo-Nazis.
Or to put it simply enough for a mistaken identity adherent to understand.
The Palestinians are the enemy!
Remember Palestinian reaction to 9/11?
Pat H. Go back to stormfront and worship your Austrian homosexual false god.
Tvarisch one could almost be impressed with someone posting on an anti-collectivist blog page using a variant of the old Soviet Russian word for comrade.
How about we discuss Zionism's crimes after we discuss the Hundreds of Millions your kind have been confirmed to have murdered!
You would have made a good Maoist Red Guard.
Of course you agree with the NeoNazi your kind shares the same mind.
Black Flag, No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate?
The Palestinians abandoned their homes to make the genocidal campaign of their Arab masters easier. How do you think they ended up in those camps all of a sudden?
Don't believe me look into it for yourself.
Lord Bertrand Russel was a Fabian Socialist. Which alone puts him in a category with Stalin's useful idiots at best. With Stalin at worst.
Palestine is a fictional place like Utopia.
Just try to find a Palestinian coin that was not made by the British. Just one example of the recent invention of the Palestinian state. Israel predates all so called Palestinian polities anyway.
Look in to it for your self I dare ya!
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