Tuesday, March 16, 2010

Thank you, "Zorro," for helping to publicize this issue. Can we have an acknowledgement on this from ATF without calling Congress?

Little Jimmy Vann does his Zorro impression.. The wall ain't the only thing "Zorro" pissed on

Folks,


When we last left CleanUpATF.org, FNG Enufsenuf had indicated that the ATF had determined (and published) that a pistol grip shotgun (without folding stock, mind you) was NOT a shotgun but a pistol. Now here is Gandalf123's pertinent question, both quoting and reacting to that post:

gandalf23

Posted Yesterday, 01:09 PM

Enufsenuf, on 11 March 2010 - 08:47 PM, said:

Ok, being an old-timer, I have an FFL Newsletter (1990 Volume 1, page 4) which addresses PG shotguns and the interpretation by ATF that these firearms are not "shotguns" under the GCA. This same issue was addressed again in a February 1999 FFL Newsletter (page 3), again stating that a PG shotgun is not a "shotgun" under the GCA. So the masked man was correct in that this issue has been around for a long time. We old-timers may be old, but we still got some smarts . . . and a memory to boot! The "other" category of firearms is relatively new (2008), but the PG shotgun issue is not.


This may be the wrong venue to ask these questions, and I apologize in advance if it is, but...

I've got a 12 gauge Mossberg that I bought new from Academy Sports a few years ago. It's the pistol gripped Persuader model. Am I understanding this correctly that this firearm is not considered a shotgun? If that is correct, is there a legal minimum barrel length on a "firearm" or "other" firearm? My understanding is that rifles must have a minimum of 16 inches of barrel, and shotguns 18. But I can't find a reference to a minimum length on a "firearm" or "other".

If I cut the barrel of my Mossberg so that is it even with the magazine tube, and thus under 18 inches, is that legal since the Mossberg is not a shotgun but is a "firearm" or "other"?

If the "firearm" or "other" classification is correct, does that classification go away when a traditional buttstock (not just a pistol grip in other words) is added to the firearm? My understanding, as a non-ATF, non-FFL person, is that if I take the stock off my rifle and put a pistol grip on it, it does not then become a pistol, it stays a rifle. And if the overall length when I do that is under 26 inches it becomes a NFA item, a Short Barreled Rifle. So by that logic, it would seem to me that adding a traditional buttstock to my Mossberg does not transform it into a shotgun, it would continue to stay a "firearm" or "other" since that's what is was originally, but maybe I am wrong there.

If adding a traditional buttstock to my Mossberg Persuader does not transform it into a shotgun, then it could legally have an under 18 inch barrel, correct? Since it would still be a "firearm" or "other" and not a "shotgun".

Again, sorry if this is the wrong place to ask about this, but this is very confusing for a layperson to figure out. I have asked three FFLs about it this weekend, and they could not come to a decision, and the young fella I talked to at the ATF office said it was a shotgun to begin with, not an "other" or "firearm" and seemed to get annoyed when I asked about the newsletters referenced in previous posts.

Just so y'all know, I have no nefarious purpose in store for this gun. I bought it because it fits inside the toolbox on my truck. And I thought it would be great to have for coyotes and armadillos and putting down the occasional deer that's hit by a car (which happens a lot out here), and not be too expensive to worry about it banging around in the toolbox. But after shooting it a bit, I decided I really don't like a pistolgrip-only shotgun. It hurts my hands, and it's not all that accurate. I'd like to add a buttstock to it, but then it's too long for my toolbox. But if I can trim the barrel a bit it'll still fit. Unfortunately the barrel would need to be trimmed to less than 18 inches. And I have thought about adding a folding or collapsible buttstock, but the ones I have looked at are just not that comfortable to me. I'd like a nice solid buttstock, so it's just like shooting my other shotguns, and heck my rifle for that matter.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on a bit there. Thanks in advance for the help, or for pointing me in the right direction.


The Mossberg 500 Cruiser.

OK, folks, now here's the straight skinny from Waldo, the patriotic snitch on the fifth floor of the "Concrete Asshole of the Universe."

IF you have a Mossberg Cruiser that you KNOW came from the factory with a pistol grip AND

IF you have never installed a standard or folding stock on it THEN

Internal ATF documents indicate that they cannot and will not prosecute anybody for shortening the barrel of their 12 Gauge pistol.

Of course, if you ever put a stock on it of any kind, or, I suspect, even possess one along with the shortened Mossberg, then I expect the ATF would fry you.

BUT, I think that this issue is ripe for a Congressional clarification moment. (And, Oh, how the agency hates those!)

So, boys and girls, write the ATF and then write your congresscritters when the ATF doesn't respond. Let's see if we can get this hole in their regulatory shorts on a piece of paper outside the agency where EVERYBODY can see it.

And "Zorro"? THANKS ever so much for helping publicize this issue. The wall isn't the only thing you pissed on. Hope your bosses like THAT.


Mike
III

9 comments:

Anonymous said...

Wait, I thought that this was already clear that a pistol grip shotgun that never had a stock and gets a short barrel was an AOW-pistol over 50cal.

But I guess the argument is that since it is a shotgun for sale at the store it has been declared to have a "sporting purpose" and since it was sold with no stock it's a pistol, and pistol barrel length doesn't matter you never had to register it.

Happy D said...

This is the kind of thing that brought before an honest court could bring the ATF house of lies crashing and burning down.

Anonymous said...

I really can't express how much I am LOVING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously - I feel giddy and giggly as a little girl, and wait for each new installment of this debacle as a little girl would wait to see if some boy liked her.

(yes or no? Please check one!)

Nothing like walking them into a corner with their idiocy...

I can't help but wonder, though... What does this do to the status of Taurus' "Judge" pistols? ARE they pistols or what? In reality, as I understand it, they're given a snubby-length "rifled barrel" precisely so they CAN be called pistols - otherwise they'd be an SBS and subject to all the NFA nonsense.

It makes perfect sense for them to be pistols, but then given this stuff about factory-made pistol-grip SGs one would expect to be able to cut the barrel of a mossy PG to 1.5" if desired.

Here's ANOTHER question: There used to be a SG - I can't recall the name - that was a double-barrel/pistol-grip from the factory that had a ~12" barrel. They were declared SBS and pretty much run out of business... How could that BE?

Seems to me, given this rule, that the serbu "super-shorty" is **NOT** a "AOW" eiter - right?

Talk about "over a barrel" (pun intended) - how have these "letters" been out for ~20 years without anyone catching this before?

'scuse my while I continue giggling like a schoolgirl...

DD

Anonymous said...

My, my, my.
The things one learns on this blog. VERY educational.
If I ever come across one of these non-shotguns, I'll be sure to snatch it up right away. . . .

B Woodman
III-per

wv: "ranes" What it does when Claude pours water over your head.

Dr.D said...

What the hell do we do if we went to Wally World and bought a Mdl 500 that came with both a stock and a pistol grip?

Dr.D

Tvarisch said...

It's just a standard radical Marxist tactic of creating as much confusion among "the enemy" as possible. It's not about what's legal or illegal, it's about creating a condition of fear and paranoia, and opportunities for action against us.

Flavet said...

On the matter under discussion, it happens that my congressional representative from Fairfax County, Virginia, is a true Pelosi Kool-Aid drinker.

Please determine whether we have a consensus on the classification we'd like the 500 to be awarded (mine was a 20 gauge new in the box from Davidson's). Whatever is the result, I'll contact Gerry Connelly and ask him if he can persuade The Taut-Skinned one to order her minions to "deem" a bill passed to that effect.

I'm a bit concerned because I doubt that Hrry Reed understands the meaning of "deem."

BTW, after a couple of trial deployments I removed the pistol grip and installed the stock. That made it easier to point when hip shooting and gave me firmer control.

Anonymous said...

Flavet:

I'm quite sure you did no such thing - adding a stock would forever void any chance of claiming it's a "pistol" - or get you in NFA/AOW troubles...

What you meant to say was "I thought..." or "I dreamed about..." - right?


;o )

Anonymous said...

Aren't Taurus Judge's under 18 inches and are pistols?