Wednesday, December 21, 2011

National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 2012. What does it do, or not do? More importantly, does it constitute a declaration of war on the people?

Ever since Bill St. Clair mirrored this declaration of a State of War by Anonymous, I have been asked to comment upon it. Now, being rather experienced about chest-thumping "Declarations of War" in the 90s, I am a bit jaded by, and more than a bit suspicious of, the genre. Consequently I have been trying to find out what the NDAA actually says, as opposed to what folks say it says. It is important before you go to war to find out exactly what it is you are going to war about. I am not alone, it seems. Ranger Rick forwards this NDAA FAQ: A Guide for the Perplexed. I am still a bit perplexed after reading it through twice, but less perplexed than I was.
The cut-to-the-chase comment is here: "No federal statute can repeal the Bill of Rights. To the extent any provision of the NDAA is found to conflict with any provision of the Bill of Rights, it will not survive constitutional scrutiny."
Yeah. And its application to American citizens on American soil won't survive this guy, either. Him and a couple-three million of his friends.
Here's my conclusion: If anybody in the government, at any level of government, starts raiding American citizens' homes, putting black bags over their heads and carrying them off without due process, then the shooting begins whether they have a law that says they can or not. That's just a fact. Nothing repeals your natural, God-given and inalienable rights. No more free Wacos.
So, my advice? Until you actually see the whites of the raid parties eyes, don't start shooting. No Fort Sumters. Nothing's changed. Whatever somebody SAYS they are going to do you is only a damn good reason to get ready to repel his tyrannical intentions. When they cross the line to DOING it? The answer is obvious. If you do a good enough job at the first, maybe he'll lose interest in the second. Then again, maybe not.
In the meantime, do what you should have been doing all along -- preparing. Training. Fitness. Logistics. Planning defensive strategies for your local area.
Got militia?


Collapse News said...

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments. Hopefully nothing substantial ever comes of this atrocious act...but if the day comes when american citizens are being wrongly stripped of their freedom and lead from their homes...let the people rise up to defend their god given rights.

Dr.D said...

The cut-to-the-chase comment is here: "No federal statute can repeal the Bill of Rights. To the extent any provision of the NDAA is found to conflict with any provision of the Bill of Rights, it will not survive constitutional scrutiny."

All fine and good excepting of course that the BOR has been violated regularly, and no one in the current administration or the previous seems to think that's a problem.
I agree Mike we cant shoot them....yet.


Bill St. Clair said...

Well, I'm still sitting today at my computer and writing code, not gathering equipment and planning raids. I still consider NDAA 2012 sections 1031 & 1032 to be a declaration of war, but I agree with you that a declaration is not an act.

The big difference is that I will no longer allow federal agents to take me alive. I might have gone along before this and taken it to the (largely corrupt beyond repair) federal courts, but since I no longer have an expectation of ever seeing a court room, that is no longer an option.

Then again, I'm a middle-aged fat guy who has made his living for the last 30-some years sitting at a desk and wiggling his fingers. My ability to fight feds at my door is pretty poor. But I do have a short-barreled shotgun handy (18.5" oh BATFE goons reading this), and I can easily hit a human-sized target with it at 25 yards. So I might do a little damage before they kill me. Or not.

Where was it that I read of somebody being asked whether he would go to the aid of far-away patriots under federal attack, to which he replied that there are plenty of feds nearby that he can deal with locally should such an attack occur?

Anonymous said...

"Therefore, be it declared that a STATE OF WAR formally exists between the Government of these United States and the People of these United States."

In our republican form of government it is the several states who representative the people. They alone, among all the constitutionally recognized powers, have authority to alter or abolish the federal government.

"Anonymous" can no more declare war than I can negotiate a treaty with a foreign sovereign.

This is not to say that good people must submit to any injury or indignity that may be visited upon them by the King's men.

The time will surely come again for armed resistance to federal transgressions. Until such time as War Between the States II begins, make every effort to avoid making the same mistakes that were committed by the Confederacy, which includes making adequate provision for your own logistics.


wv "milicar" an abbreviated military rifle, an assault carbine.
Git yerself some.

LibertyNews said...

The problem is that 'constitutional scrutiny' is only applied when one of their laws is challenged, not as part of the process of passing the law. And if the folks who would be challenging it are 'vanished' where does that leave us?

Anonymous said...

Well, what about the fellow that was dragged out of a house without a warrant or charges. he was a witness or related to an alleged militia group on the west coast. I forget his name and his location. He was staying in a friends house that had children and yet an armed group came in and scared everyone and hauled this 'citizen' away. How is that different from this discussion?

SWIFT said...

The problem with trying to find a legal solution to the NDAA for 2012 is: If you are whisked away, you cannot file a suit in which you claim the no federal statute can repeal the Bill of Rights. As we have seen repeatedly in the last 10-12 years, if you file suit now, the courts would rule that you have no "standing" as you have not been harmed. You absolutely cannot have justice under this type of system, within legal parameters. When the day comes that people start disappearing like Argentina in the 1970's, then it's war. Arm yourselves! That is the only justice you will know.

MI-copperhead said...

"In the meantime, do what you should have been doing all along -- preparing. Training. Fitness. Logistics. Planning defensive strategies for your local area.
Got militia?"

Spot on !

Capt45 said...

"We can't shoot them yet" is true, but for now we can write to and talk to our 'representatives' and let them know this Act is an abomination.

King John spend the decade before he became king to abuse his office as prince and upon his brother, Richard I's death, pulled out all the stops.

His barons then cried 'ENOUGH!' and dragged his sorry ass to Runnymede and forced him to sign the Magna Carta.

We need to follow the lead of those barons. Maybe we could show up, en masse, at the homes of our congress creeps and demand an accounting of their actions re: this bill. Make it stick by recruiting and supporting candidates who respect the Constitution.

Anonymous said...

so, how will you know when hostilities have commenced?

when someone disappears, how much media coverage will it get?

Doc Enigma said...

The key to MBV's statement, "If anybody in the government, at any level of government, starts raiding American citizens' homes, putting black bags over their heads and carrying them off without due process, then the shooting begins whether they have a law that says they can or not. That's just a fact. Nothing repeals your natural, God-given and inalienable rights. No more free Wacos.

So, my advice? Until you actually see the whites of the raid parties eyes, don't start shooting. No Fort Sumters. Nothing's changed."
is simply this:

It must be observed on a national scale. If it happens in Alabama, it's the same as it happening in North Dakota or Florida or Texas or Michigan or California or any other state.

If we, as the patriot community, simply take the easy way, and say, "Well, that's going on in New Hampshire, it has nothing to do with MY state, so I'm staying home", they will continue to take down innocent, patriotic Americans one by one.

What was it Bob Wright said? Something along the lines of, "Why would I go somewhere else? I've got plenty of you sonsabitches right here."

There's a certain genius in that statement....monitor nationally, act locally.

Anonymous said...

Now we can all be declared to be like Jose Padilla....difference will be you speak out against .gov, you show up a militia meeting, etc. And the fact that you will never have your day in court.

At this point it seems better to me to shoot the buggers when they try to take you, family, and friends and ask for Gods forgiveness.

Anonymous said...

Baiting and trapping would-be predator feds at militia meetings and handing them to the sheriff would be awesome good fun. Or maybe we could keep them ourselves. After all, we hoard food so there's plenty to go around. We could de-zombify them and turn them into patriots. Force them to watch a John Wayne movie marathon and listen to hours of Ronald Reagan speeches.

I am only half joking.

justiceseeker51 said...

Dr. Ron Paul states in this video, that it means us. There was a question asked close to the end about it.

Brandt Hardin said...

The NDAA only goes to further stifle our Constitutional Rights without the approval of the Americans, just as the Patriot Act was adopted WITHOUT public approval or vote just weeks after the events of 9/11. A mere 3 criminal charges of terrorism a year are attributed to this act, which is mainly used for no-knock raids leading to drug-related arrests without proper cause for search and seizure. The laws are simply a means to spy on our own citizens and to detain and torture dissidents without trial or a right to council. You can read much more about living in this Orwellian society of fear and see my visual response to these measures on my artist’s blog at

Mt Top Patriot said...

Here they come...

There certainly are no lack of willing dupes and sycophants who will do the ruling class elites bidding.

Just as there are a whole lot of free men and woman who understand serious as a heart attack what Liberty is.
There is a few defining things here. This is one big ass country with one hell of a lot of rifles and ammunition in the hands of people who have the capability to put a serious hurt on tyrants and treasonous crooks determined to take these folks Liberty.
The elites do not know how incredibly lucky they are, that the good sense and grace of millions of Americans place the rule and respect of law first, even in the face of a complete lack of it these fundamental ideas of civilized society, by these lords and perfumed princes, in the first instance.
These elites have no conception of the can of whoop ass that is going to be opened on their lousy treasonous hides if they do not back off.
That is the truth no matter how you slice it.
By no means have we come to the point of no return, but there is no doubt things are creeping at an increasing rate to that Rubicon.
We will see.
I believe it will not be long before the elites take the nuclear option. They are committed to obtaining absolute power, they can not stop. This is not in the nature of these things.
You can tell by the ebb and flow of treason, imposition of various instruments of tyranny, how events, the dynamics of this avalanche of treachery, as this encroaching tyranny evolves, it is a runaway train bearing down on we the people.
I think the internal point of no return has been passed by the likes of Holder, obama and the rest of the enabling culture of corruption called the federal government. It is totally completely out of control of the principles of the rule of law and concept of republican form of government.

This is a coupe from the inside out of The United States that has in effect transpired, it now only remains for this tyrannical power to realize its fruition externally with imposition upon the entire sphere of our lives. Mark my words, it is something that can not stop by its very nature of things of tyranny. It can only be stopped by the sovereign power of the will of we the people.
We have been down this road before, for the same reasons.
It is to us to redress the wrongs.
There ain't going to be any choice. The options of peaceful redress are diminishing via deliberate acts designed specifically to do just that. We as a people are actively being herded into a corner. The point when the dynamic of peaceful redress changes to one of armed violent redress is at the point where there is simply no alternatives. We are arriving at this point in a short time if the rate of treason by our elites continues.
That is the plain truth and cold hard facts of the matter.

Johnny said...

The Start Line is a hair away. I'm calling it right now: there will be a false flag "militia" incident leading to arrest of prominent militia figures... including most likely Mike. That will give you Zulu Hour. Not long now, commence target reconnaissance in preparation.

Anonymous said...

The problem with all the "insurrectionist" rhetoric is that it doesn't fully account for several discomforting facts.

Such as the fact that it is easier to pledge ones life for a cause than to give it.

Or the fact that the police state overlords are very calculating and clever and will start implementing this policy against those who can easily be discredited and marginalized by their media minions.

Or the fact that the fascisti tend to strike in the we hours of the morning when their victims are unconscious and awaken in a defenseless stupor. I for one will not risk having my wife and daughter shot up or stomped to death just to give 'em what for.

Without a swift, sustained and coordinated resistance by thousands of regime oponents on the scene immediately there doesn't seem to be much that can be done at present to prevent folks from "dissappearing".

If I were whisked off to some CIA rendition gulag in Pakistan in the wee hours I don't think my suburban neighbors would even notice. And if they did most would probably think I had it coming or just go back to watching Monday Night Football or Dancing With The Stars.

It is going to have to get a lot worse before the sheeple wake up, and when they do they may just bleat plaintively and continue grazing.

Pat H. said...

I see the use of Fort Sumter once again. That's a bad example.

Fort Sumter was invaded by Yankee terrorist troops in the early morning hours of 26 December, 1860; Fort Sumter itself had no garrison at all, and the Republic of South Carolina had a written agreement for the US government to not try to garrison the fort, South Carolina agreeing to act likewise.

Once the troops from Fort Moultrie were in place, as invading troops, they were allowed food provisions, but nothing else. They were given nearly four months to cease their invasion of South Carolina territory, but when the invasion flotilla, authorized by Lincoln, showed up off the coast of South Carolina, the defenders had no choice but to fire on the fort to force the terrorists to leave.

No one in the fort was killed.

So, you see, Fort Sumter wasn't a precipitous act, it was exactly the same as the defenders at Lexington and Concord faced, with the same reaction from the Empire such as it existed in 1861.

straight out tha muthaphukin ghetto said...

Mike V. said: "Here's my conclusion: If anybody in the government, at any level of government, starts raiding American citizens' homes, putting black bags over their heads and carrying them off without due process, then the shooting begins whether they have a law that says they can or not."

Mike, you may not realize it but this very thing has already happened. go over to arctic patriot's blog and read up about it. An alaska militaman was whisked away by warrantless armed fed thugs, held without bail, no trial. Just there to be detained as a "witness".

If i read your words clearly mike, this means that you would condone shooting right now? Please clarify if I have you mistaken.

Anonymous said...

More info on bill NDAA....
Although Sections 1031 and 1032 were renumbered 1021 and 1022 in the Conference Committee (makes it harder to Google) the substance is still intact. The US military can bust down your door at any time, given the proper go ahead by the executive branch, take you away, never charge you with a crime, never give you a trial, and lock you up, torture you, or even kill you. There is a bit of new razzle-dazzle in the new Section 1021 language now stating:

justiceseeker51 said...

Over 1800 pages of NDAA bill.

Anonymous said...

If the idiots in D.C. think this is a good idea, they ought to think again.

While I am sure they are mono-fixated on this place and others like the rest of the political spectrum is just as up in arms.

For simplicity ought to go read Reddit

start here

and branch out

Afterwards i hope they realize that its not just the 3% but millions and millions more, many of whom hated guns till recently , many of whom and are political rivals and to some degree almost enemies who arming up, training up and have their eye on the same treasonous beasts in DC.

Those sides won't divide and fight Sipsey for you, no divide and conquer here.

They also better realize that big chunks of the military won't obey and they will start shooting you, Quisling soldiers and whatever Mercs or PMC's you plan to back you up.

Lastly they better also realize that no one wants any trouble at all . Its easily prevented by simply following the Constitution and looking out for America 1st

However if it goes south something every person here is trying to prevent ,that there is no plan B.

We have studied history and the bad guys won't be allowed escape and come back with Chinese or some other foreign Mercs to get back into power.

Anonymous said...

Hard to believe I forgot this.

Something else everybody is going to have to know, this won't be a defensive fight where scared gun owners wait till .gov thugs attack them and their families in some 3am black bag job.

Thats a mugs game.

If it goes bad, they fight will taken to them first and its a target rich environment. There are hundreds upon hundreds of valid targets beyond the traitors themselves.

Even if they bad guys get the good guys 10-1 and somehow survive the question should for the the baddies Whats you life going to be like with 300,000 of the closest people and most of the buildings and every social network gone?

And note that's Sipsey and the 3% alone. The real numbers are much higher. That 9% approval rate ought to tell them as much.If they are willing to learn.

Merry Christmas and happy whatever other Holidays you celebrate. God bless us each and everyone and America too.

justiceseeker51 said...

NEWS: Broad swelling chorus denouncing NDAA 2012 as 'legalizing martial law'

Pat H. said...

A very good explanation of Sections 1021 and 1022 is in a short article by civil rights attorney and columnist, Glenn Greenwalt.

Three myths about the detention bill

When you have someone argue with you about who can be "disappeared", reference Greenwald's information.

justiceseeker51 said...

We NEED "out" of the UN....Quickly!!!!!!

Now I've FOUND this:

The Constitutionalist is THE greatest threat to this administration and the power lords in DC. The Constitution is a document of liberty. Its only aim is to guard those liberties against tyranny. It has no political affiliations or sympathies; it protects left and right alike.
In fact, if ALL of our elected officials were forced by threat of indictment, if need be, to uphold their Oath of Office, there would be no need for political parties and their polarizing, nefarious, influences. They could not play left against right. All Americans would be bound by the constructs inherent in it to maintain the balance of power that protects us.
Consequently, as the Tea Party, in particular, has emerged as a vanguard of the resurrection of the Constitution, the Tea Party is the natural target of this legislation. And as such, you can bet your life that there will be a horrific "Domestic Terrorist" act perpetrated before November. You can bet your life that the "perpetrators" will be "Tea Party Patriots". Then the military will be forced to start the round up. (more on site)
Click on Catherine Crabill when finished reading.
On right hand side click this:
United Nations Rights of the Child destroys Parental Control
to this:

Watch this also:
Senate to VOTE on PARENTAL RIGHTS (UN Treaty) this

CPS(Child Protective Services) is already TRYING to take over.

Anonymous said...

Ah yes, the Butcher's Bill 369

369 silly ruling class tyrants who made themselves enemy combatants against the Constitution:

List of names...

SENATE (86 of 100)


Bill St. Clair said...

Doc Enigma, thanks for remembering enough of the Bob Wright quote for me to find the original. It was an essay by Mike Vanderboegh on David Codrea's blog, back in May of 2007, before Mike had his own blog. The title was: "Resistance is Futile": Waco Rules vs. Romanian Rules. . I blogged it at

"I think the FBI realized our power before we really understood it's full implications. For one thing, we had them surrounded. At its zenith, the militia movement had perhaps as many as 300,000 active participants, but we were backed up, you see, by the undeniable fact of those millions of rifles. Of the 85 million gun owners at the time, how many would join the militias if another Waco happened? That was the question. Both sides eventually came to the realization that in any case, it was enough. As Clausewitz observed, 'In military affairs, quantity has a quality all its own.'"

"And the first thing we noticed was that the FBI became very much more solicitous of our sensibilities and sought at every turn to avoid a flashpoint. During each little potential Waco-- the Republic of Texas, the Montana Freemen, etc-- the FBI would seek out local militia leaders and ask their advice, seeking their opinions with what sounded like real concern.

"The best answer that I recall to one of these FBI queries came from Bob Wright, commander of the 1st Brigade, New Mexico Militia. When asked if he and his friends would actually go to the scene of a future Waco in another state to assist the potential victims, Bob replied, 'Why would I want to do that? There's plenty of you federal SOBs around here.' This was a perspective the Fibbie had not considered before, and it showed on his face."

Doc Enigma said...

Anonymous 12:43 said, "Without a swift, sustained and coordinated resistance by thousands of regime oponents on the scene immediately..."

Exactly right. That's why if it happens to one of us, we should react as if it happened to all of us.

If the "NIMBY" syndrome takes over, they win, first time, every time.

Of course they'll demonize. Of course they'll obfuscate.

But to do nothing, and all we do, one by die.

Anonymous said...

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government." -- some old dead white guy

Pat H. said...

US Army Corps of Engineers, EPA, Bureau of Indian Affairs, Bureau of Land Management
Bureau of Reclamation, Fish and Wildlife Service, Bureau of Ocean Energy Management, Regulation and Enforcement (formerly Minerals Management Service), National Park Service, Office of Insular Affairs, Office of Surface Mining, United States Geological Survey, Center for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships (HUD), Departmental Enforcement Center, Office of Community Planning and Development
Office of Congressional and Intergovernmental Relations, Office of Equal Employment Opportunity, Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, Office of Field Policy and Management,
Office of the General Counsel, Office of Healthy Homes and Lead Hazard Control, Office of Hearings and Appeals, Office of Labor Relations, Office of Policy Development and Research, Office of Public Affairs, Office of Public and Indian Housing, Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization, Office of Sustainable Housing and Communities.

Those are just a few of the "targets of opportunity".

However, the primary difficulty is with determining that the coming abductions, the kidnappings by government, have actually begun. After all, neither the US government nor the US Army is required to tell anyone that they've taken anyone into detention. No notice to families, local police or sheriffs, or anyone else.

How will we know unless someone lives up to their oath and performs a Bradley Manning with the information?

Anonymous said...

Needless to say, a call tree is in order, gentlemen.


Arctic Patriot said...

Jose Guerena.

Due process.

One could say, and I think Guerena would agree (were he not riddled with rounds), that by the time they're there, "whites of their eyes" close, its too late. You are dead if you do not submit.

Taken in context, "whites of their eyes" means the range at which you know you will hit.

This ain't bunker hill.

My glock has more range than did those muskets.

What does all that mean? I dunno. This bill is the codified stomping of the BoR and Constitution. It's official.

If that's not resistance-worthy, I don't really know what is.

England has an NRA.



Arctic Patriot said...

Anon 7:36

It happened in a friend of mine's home, in Fairbanks, AK. Mike Anderson was his name.

Drug him away at gunpoint, in front of a bunch of kids.


It's already happening.

It's already happening.

It's already happening.

Keep on denying it. Go ahead.

One day, they'll be at your door.

It's already happening.



hmm. wv = "trang"

Johnny said...

"Congress ultimately included language in the NDAA expressly designed to leave this question untouched–that is, governed by pre-existing law, which as we explain below is unsettled on this question." How's that gonna work out for you when you've been secretly extradited to a foreign country for enhanced interrogation?

As for: "No federal statute can repeal the Bill of Rights. To the extent any provision of the NDAA is found to conflict with any provision of the Bill of Rights, it will not survive constitutional scrutiny." Don't make laugh, this statement is in blatant contradiction to reality.

Anonymous said...

Some of us are CLEARLY delusional.

This is ALREADY happening.

"Oh, but Mike Anderson doesn't count b/c that didn't happen to anyone I know.

Jose Guerena....not in my state, so it doesn't affect me."

Here are the facts....none of us are going to do anything. Holder is NOT going to prison for F&F either.


Woody said...

If the patriot community is, in fact, going to stand, then the very next Jose Guerna or AP's friend in AK that gets taken down, must be 'the shot heard 'round the world'.


What we are doing now is that each time someone gets nailed, we (all of us, including me) say, "Well, it's not time yet...but if those bastards come to MY front door, they eat lead." And all that is heard in the background is the laughter of the assault teams, and worse, the elected representatives who give them the authorization to do their deeds.

That's not acceptable, for a very, very important reason: In the context of liberty, every bit of ground lost may never be recovered in our life times, however long or short they may be.

The 'other side' is moving forward, step by step, and they're meeting little to no resistance, which is emboldening them to greater heights of infamy.

The so-called, "line-in-the-sand" needs to be a "line-in-the-concrete" and each of us who believe in the Constitution and the Declaration and inalienable rights had better do a gut check, because it's about to get as real and ugly as it can get.

Conversations on when the 'shtf' have been taking place for years and years and years...and AP and others are correct: It's happening now.


I'm no longer worried about a Ft. Sumter situation; that scenario was set up by subterfuge and deceit. The 'other side' doesn't need to use deceit anymore. They do what they wish when they wish and how they wish, which is usually violent and resuts in the death of the target.

If we come together and spread the word, far and wide, that the very next time another American, no matter what state they live in, is 'Waco'd' or 'Ruby Ridged', there will no longer be any 'talk'.

And then, most of all, we have to mean it.

Deeds, not words, count.

"It's time to nut up or shut up." - Woody Harrelson, "Zombieland"

Anonymous said...

Read Glenn Greenwald at Salon on this.

JoeFromSidney said...

Nikolai Lenin once said (I'm paraphrasing): Probe with the bayonet. If you meet steel, pull back. If you meet mush, keep pushing. So far the Feds have met mush.

Anonymous said...

I've said all I need to the moral and philosophical elements of the matter.

Hopefully it won't come to any trouble. If it does though remember, good actionable intelligence is as important as a rifle.

Computers not only allow them to spy on us easier but for us to spy on them and names, address, favorite waterholes, stores that cater to them and all that juicy good stuff can be had as Anonymous and others have shown.

Much of its public record and perfectly legal too.

They may know where Mike is or where some us are posting from but we can know where they are too and more importantly they will not know who all of us are.

I suspect or maybe hope nothing much will come of any of this but as our host often say "got militia"

Anonymous said...

According to Annette Lundeby of Oxford, N.C., armed FBI agents and local police stormed her home around 10 p.m. on March 5, looking for her son, Ashton. The officers presented a federal search warrant and seized the tenth-grader's computer, cell phone and bank statements.

Read more: Mother claims teen jailed by Patriot Act

The act of throwing a black hood over civilians' head and kidnapping them...placing them beyond reach of defense is already happening. This article is moot. Time to pick em off is past.

Anonymous said...