The video is very telling. No plan, no discipline, no stack, no evidence from body language that a serious threat was expected, no evidence of actual entry training let alone firearms training. The siren seems to be a mistake: as the officer in the drivers seat responds to an audible comment about "lights" and appears to turn to reach for the control panel the siren kicks off. OOPS! And what ever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty? This is what Marines call a Charlie Foxtrot... a very fatal CF.
Cluster fuck is the only thing to describe what is shown on the video.
Bad enough the lack of training and discipline demonstrated in this clip but worse has been the modification of the story by the Pima Co. Sheriff's Dept.
Does anyone think that if they had found anything illegal it would not have been brought forward to justify this mess? They didn't have a damn thing on this man and he is not alive to dispute their slanderous claims.
I've read the analysis over on Confederate Yankee's blog, it's very thorough and explains a lot.
In addition to the tragic murder of Jose Guerena, it's even more tragic that not one of the gangsters that committed the murder received more than a scratch or bruise.
That means that until they do receive justice, one way or another, there's unfinished business in Pima County, Arizona.
"Only they are authorized to engage—shoot—potential threats in their area of responsibility."
From what we've seen, they all go berserk on the first target they find. Which can be good for the home defender, provided that target isn't anything he's overly attached to:
"This is essential because there can easily be more than one threat in more than one place. If an entire stack focuses or fires on the first perceived threat, the entire team may be wiped out by an unseen shooter."
Posted the following on his blog site. "Hmmm... Many questions of legality. Good report sir. From someone who used to teach these in the old days when SWAT was first gaining traction I am saddened by the loss of a Citizen for just doing what many of us would probably be caught doing in the same situation. They gained a lot of the training from us in the military including the discipline of when not to shoot. It meant something. After that, seven years as a SWAT Medic watching many actions from more of an observer point of view. Did you catch that? MEDIC on scene and present for all who may need care after an incident, for whatever reason. SWAT was rarely used because of the inherent dangers. As it was intended to save lives, not cause damage or take lives. This was a fiasco from what I have seen on the video. If I was officially over viewing this there would be many heads rolling, suspensions, and a couple of firings already. Geez, the incompetence illustrated is so disheartening."
OK - deep breaths are in order for some posters here. The analysis on the CY site was very well done. Having been in on some of the high risk entries 'back in the day' (pre SWAT) believe me that no one really wants to do one of these operations. Way too many things can (and do) go wrong. At the end of the day - coppers (most of whom are NOT JBLs)just want to go home to mama just like any other working stiff. 'Anonymous' Taz - spot on about this being investigated - by an outside agency with absolutely no connection to PCSO - place the appropriate blame where it belongs and sanction those responsible to the fullest extent of the law.
[T]hey all go berserk on the first target they find. Which can be good for the home defender, provided that target isn't anything he's overly attached to. Anon@12:54
Oh, you mean like these. :^) http://www.dummiesunlimited.com/Delta%20Targets.htm
"sanction those responsible to the fullest extent of the law. "
What are you gonna do with them? Take their lives like they did that Marine? There are no sanctions that will do in this case. None that are going to be applied anyway and all of this will happen again. Because that's how it is.
For Anonymous at 5:54 PM: You mean "an outside agency with absolutely no connection to PCSO" like DOJ? But Mr. Gurena was not one of His People. So that ain't about to happen. The stench is overwhelming.
What the SWAT guys had was... a duty to search the residence and question the occupants. To do this meant they had to either get cooperation or total surprise. Playing a siren and being seen outside holding rifles did not accomplish the mission. It gave a presumably innocent man concern for his and his family's safety. The man with the gun his wife spotted outside could have been a home invader, the siren could have been a ruse. If I wanted that situation to end well I either would have called him out over a loud speaker or just busted in with no warning at 4am. Either way it couldn't have ended much worse than this... unless they demolished the house with a tank and fired off a dozen combustible canisters of gas like they did in Waco. Thankfully his family were out of the line of fire and the "SWAT" team didn't perceive them as a threat.
17 comments:
The video is very telling. No plan, no discipline, no stack, no evidence from body language that a serious threat was expected, no evidence of actual entry training let alone firearms training. The siren seems to be a mistake: as the officer in the drivers seat responds to an audible comment about "lights" and appears to turn to reach for the control panel the siren kicks off. OOPS! And what ever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty? This is what Marines call a Charlie Foxtrot... a very fatal CF.
Ninja suits and M-4's don't make cops SWAT. most "SWAT teams" are just wannabe's without adequate training and, most importantly, DISCIPLINE.
Yes, excellent analysis.
Cluster fuck is the only thing to describe what is shown on the video.
Bad enough the lack of training and discipline demonstrated in this clip but worse has been the modification of the story by the Pima Co. Sheriff's Dept.
Does anyone think that if they had found anything illegal it would not have been brought forward to justify this mess? They didn't have a damn thing on this man and he is not alive to dispute their slanderous claims.
Shame on these SWAT goons!
KPN3%
I've read the analysis over on Confederate Yankee's blog, it's very thorough and explains a lot.
In addition to the tragic murder of Jose Guerena, it's even more tragic that not one of the gangsters that committed the murder received more than a scratch or bruise.
That means that until they do receive justice, one way or another, there's unfinished business in Pima County, Arizona.
Now this is how to examine such events.
Professional analysis about what happened with theories about why based on evidence.
C.Y. has done us a favor.
"Only they are authorized to engage—shoot—potential threats in their area of responsibility."
From what we've seen, they all go berserk on the first target they find. Which can be good for the home defender, provided that target isn't anything he's overly attached to:
"This is essential because there can easily be more than one threat in more than one place. If an entire stack focuses or fires on the first perceived threat, the entire team may be wiped out by an unseen shooter."
The JBTs were not looking for a drug or murder suspect as local LE currently alleges.
One does not approach such suspects like Tinkebelle at the fairy dance.
This was a planned intimidation event that went horribly wrong...
...or a cover story for something else that went even worse.
Posted the following on his blog site. "Hmmm... Many questions of legality. Good report sir. From someone who used to teach these in the old days when SWAT was first gaining traction I am saddened by the loss of a Citizen for just doing what many of us would probably be caught doing in the same situation. They gained a lot of the training from us in the military including the discipline of when not to shoot. It meant something. After that, seven years as a SWAT Medic watching many actions from more of an observer point of view. Did you catch that? MEDIC on scene and present for all who may need care after an incident, for whatever reason. SWAT was rarely used because of the inherent dangers. As it was intended to save lives, not cause damage or take lives. This was a fiasco from what I have seen on the video. If I was officially over viewing this there would be many heads rolling, suspensions, and a couple of firings already. Geez, the incompetence illustrated is so disheartening."
Taz
Well, SWAT does stand for *SPECIAL* Weapons And Tactics. Those guys definitely are "special;" wonder if Pima County has a custom short van for them.
What I wouldn't give to lead a squad of nineteen year old infantrymen or army cav scouts against those goddamned murderers...
Force on force, in any environment.
I bet they don't think themselves so sexy when they face off against equal odds.
They are murderers.
They may wear a uniform and carry non-civilian permitted weapons, but they are nothing more than murderers.
Oh, wait, lemme guess...
This is just another fluke, a case of an "accident" or a few "bad apples"...
That story is worn out.
This was another goddamned Waco, and free for them, too.
Combined with the recent kentucky vs king SCOTUS ruling, it is apparent that we have entered an escalated reality.
AP
OK - deep breaths are in order for some posters here. The analysis on the CY site was very well done. Having been in on some of the high risk entries 'back in the day' (pre SWAT) believe me that no one really wants to do one of these operations. Way too many things can (and do) go wrong. At the end of the day - coppers (most of whom are NOT JBLs)just want to go home to mama just like any other working stiff.
'Anonymous' Taz - spot on about this being investigated - by an outside agency with absolutely no connection to PCSO - place the appropriate blame where it belongs and sanction those responsible to the fullest extent of the law.
[T]hey all go berserk on the first target they find. Which can be good for the home defender, provided that target isn't anything he's overly attached to.
Anon@12:54
Oh, you mean like these. :^)
http://www.dummiesunlimited.com/Delta%20Targets.htm
MALTHUS
"sanction those responsible to the fullest extent of the law. "
What are you gonna do with them? Take their lives like they did that Marine? There are no sanctions that will do in this case. None that are going to be applied anyway and all of this will happen again. Because that's how it is.
MALTHUS-
I call foul racism! ALL of the target people {TWAT victims) in that ad are white! Agenda?
For Anonymous at 5:54 PM:
You mean "an outside agency with absolutely no connection to PCSO" like DOJ? But Mr. Gurena was not one of His People. So that ain't about to happen. The stench is overwhelming.
You have to wonder what is the possibility that the victim here had a price put on his head and someone in the police department wanted to collect?
Just saying. This random police killings happen pretty frequently.
What the SWAT guys had was... a duty to search the residence and question the occupants. To do this meant they had to either get cooperation or total surprise. Playing a siren and being seen outside holding rifles did not accomplish the mission. It gave a presumably innocent man concern for his and his family's safety. The man with the gun his wife spotted outside could have been a home invader, the siren could have been a ruse. If I wanted that situation to end well I either would have called him out over a loud speaker or just busted in with no warning at 4am. Either way it couldn't have ended much worse than this... unless they demolished the house with a tank and fired off a dozen combustible canisters of gas like they did in Waco. Thankfully his family were out of the line of fire and the "SWAT" team didn't perceive them as a threat.
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