Maybe we should rethink the whole ‘us vs. them’ thing
I’m a former ATF agent. Sipsey Street was recommended to me as a ‘must read’ by another former agent. Before you write the two of us off as ‘them’, hear me out.
Kay Kubicki wanted to put the real bad guys in jail. Like most of the ATF agents I have known through the years, she was very sincere and passionate about that. As a young agent in Chicago and then Detroit, she certainly had plenty of opportunity. Kay believed in ATF’s mission. That mission was supposed to be to put the worst of the worst violent criminals away. However, by the time she was promoted to a group supervisor, she was beginning to realize something. The real bad guys were running the agency.
It was around this time that I came to know Kay. I, too, had wanted to be an ATF agent, and worked toward that goal. I didn’t even get through the interview process before I fell into an typical ATF scandal. This particular one involved a high ranking official who couldn’t manage to keep his penis in his pants while working. At that time, this man was the Special Agent in Charge (SAC) in Kansas City. He was notorious within ATF for molesting women whenever he had the opportunity, and “interviewing” applicants seemed to be a specialty of his. Of course being a SAC, he was never held accountable in any real way. ATF would just transfer him to a new region whenever another women complained. When it comes to ATF, being in the wrong place at the wrong time can alter your life quickly, drastically, and almost always horrifically. I was 23 years old.
In order to coverup for this sick SAC, ATF’s highest ranking officials met and conspired to discredit me (this was the judge’s verbiage in the litigation to follow). Not only did they attempt to keep me from becoming an agent, they trumped up a pre-employment background investigation that would ensure I would never be able to get any job that required a background check. They knew that with this SAC’s very long and perverted history, they would have to discredit me down to my very toes in order to have any credibility within the field.
By the time ATF finished with me, Hannibal Lector had started to look almost harmless in comparison. As a side note, many of the very same high ranking officials who tried to destroy me and all my witnesses, went on to direct that infamous raid in Waco Texas. These officials lied to congress about the raid and the inevitable ATF cover up. The very same things happened with Fast and Furious. ATF is consistent with it’s scandals and subsequent coverups if nothing else.
I was blessed to have had the support of some good and honest agents. And when I say “support”, I mean the kind of support where these agents knew how high up within the agency this coverup went, and knew ATF would come after them with the same viciousness they go after anyone who crosses them, whether that person is an FFL just trying to run a business, a citizen, or an employee. By the way, after years of litigation, every one of the agents who supported me was either fired or suspended within days of their testimony. They were then forced to go into litigation with an agency that bragged it had “unlimited funds to litigate” them “indefinitely”. I guess that’s what you do when you have access to taxpayer money and no accountability. And at ATF, telling the truth against the bureau is the most egregious sin an employee can commit. The highest level of retaliation is reserved for these folks.
Shortly after my job “interview” with SAC Sicko, word spread quickly throughout ATF...the real bad guys were at it again. And as is always the case when these scandals hit, employees choose sides. Most sided with the agency because the price was just too high to do otherwise. I understood. There were several who not only sided with the agency, they jumped on the bandwagon in an attempt to gain favor for future promotions by lying. Many times while they were under oath. But there was a small percentage who stood up for me for no other reason that it was the right thing to do. This was the point at which my path crossed that of Kay Kubicki's.
Kay, who was a group supervisor in Detroit at the time, heard my story through ATF’s very efficient grapevine. Since she now understood who the real bad guys really were, and she never had the ability to turn her back on an injustice, she helped me. Kay had an incredible mind along with a keen sense of justice and the tenacity of a Pit Bull. She used every resource she had to gather documents for my case, coordinated witnesses, and worked tirelessly with my attorney. Because it was ATF, Kay was fired of course.
The first two things she did after being fired were to go into litigation with ATF in an attempt to get her job back and to go to law school. Even before Kay graduated law school, she had started representing ATF employees in the administrative arena. Then as an attorney, she took on the cases of the most victimized employees. These cases typically involved those who had been fired, most with families to support, and who had no money with which to pay an attorney. No one has ever fought corruption within the government harder than Kay. Predictably, when she died she was in financial ruins. That she died of a massive stroke was also predictable. Her career choice was certainly stressful.
Shortly after I won my first case against ATF, a large group of us went on “60 Minutes” to tell our stories. The show eventually helped several of us win our cases against ATF. That was 20 years ago. Today the federal government has gotten so much bigger, so much more powerful, and so much more out-of-control, it no longer gives a rat’s ass how much the public knows about the nasty things it does. Winning a battle, any battle, against the federal government was always difficult. Today it is close to impossible. I believe that the best chance we have of taking our government back is to stand together. I don’t think we have the luxury any longer of standing only with those we view as “us”.
Some say that anyone who would work for ATF deserves whatever ATF does to them. After all, if anyone is a ‘them’, wouldn’t it be an ATF agent? My argument would be that we all awaken at different ages and for a wide range of different reasons. It’s what we do from that point on that speaks to who were are. I’ve always wondered when those, who stand firmly in the ‘us vs. them’ mentality, got their enlightenment. Were they born with it? Did they awaken in 1st grade? Second grade? High school? College? I would also argue that the awakened public needs the ATF insiders as much as the insiders need the public’s support. I don’t know of one ATF scandal within the last 25 years that wasn’t brought to light by a whistleblower, or at least affirmed by one. And you can believe that no ATF whistleblower ever escaped unscathed. That ATF will always viciously retaliate is a known fact before a whistleblower ever stands up to do what is right.
Had Mike Vanderboegh and David Codrea had the ‘us vs. them’ mindset, Fast and Furious would likely be only a movie.
54 comments:
I would really love to have sympathy for the whistleblowers, really I would, but apparently none of them had the REAL stones to confront and eradicate the problem. they approached the situation as if the "system" that IS thoroughly CORRUPT would magically "work" to protect them when they went to do the "right thing". When you live your lies with blinders on and you accept the culture as being corrupt but workable as long as it doesn't affect them personally, that is abdication and ACCEPTANCE of the corruption. You CANNOT have it both ways. You are ALL IN or you are ALL OUT. Same to be said of the military, I have had my own trials and risked EVERYTHING to fight the culture of corruption within it and was lucky as hell to escape it myself. I don't want anyone's sympathy for anything I wont give it either. EYES WIDE OPEN folks. if you approach ANYTHING government does without accepting widespread systemic corruption that IS the system, you are either incredibly and UNBELIEVABLY NAIVE, or you are part of the corruption and WISH to join it. you cannot sell you story ANY OTHER WAY. I went in NAIVE, I came out of it way smarter, but very very vocal about it and I will not back down. Government and its agencies are collections of SCUM of the worst magnitude, but varying degrees of expression of the corruption. You accept a government paycheck, you accept that you are part of the problem, self serving interests for MONEY. Spare me the altruisms of what you think you are doing.
Sign Me, Neal Jensen
Well, "Sandy".. The major issue I have with your former potential employers is- they were left overs from the prohibition years and the feds did not have the heart to fire them. 70+ people were burned alive over a $200 tax. Millions were spent to collect a mere $200. If votes were taxed like guns are, the ATF would be on the endangered species list.
Yes, the SAC that "interviewed" you really needs a bullet to the back of the head. However.. By seeking employment with said agency is like kissing the ring of Satan and joining his minions.
Sounds like the same tripe we hear from the boys in blue, we're not all bad.
Nice reminder of how corrupt and criminal ATF is. The key is that this is not just ATF, this is the entire federal govt. It cannot be fixed or reformed, only reduced in size and shrunk so the damage it does to the people is less. When anyone gives or offers any resources to it, they are feeding an evil beast -- the worst on the planet.
Stockholm syndrome? What did these people expect from an unconstitutional agency? It really is "us versus them." Fortunately a few rediscover their conscience and contact Mike and David.
It is short sighted to say that all government employees are scum Neal, and that every employee has "kissed the ring of Satan and [joined] his minions" is far from true Anon.
The problem here is not the whistle blower, or the ATF, or the agents and employees that keep their heads down.
Are there bad apples at ATF? There is no doubt, and we will likely never know how bad or how prevalent. But that is because we haven't done anything about it.
A whistle blower is never going to change the ATF on their own, Dodson and many others have shown that. But what is the point of whistle blowing? It is to draw attention to the misdeeds of the corrupt and criminal.
It isn't the whistle blowers job to fix anything, it is the job of those thus warned to fix things. Inspectors and courts wont fix it, as shown by the record. So where do we, the warned stand? What have we done to fix the wrongs that they risked everything to report to us? What have we done besides ridicule those who had the bravery to stand up and say something?
So you ask, "What have you done?" I have done nothing, and that is wrong. I am as much at fault here as any other. But I cannot sit here high and mighty and denounce those who risked and lost much for that truth.
I fully intend to change my lack of action. Something has to be done. And we are foolish to sit and complain that no one else has done anything when we wont ourselves.
1. NAME NAMES!!! Who was the alleged pervert and where does the SOB hang out?
2. Naming a now deceased friendly is disgraceful. Get over yourself.
3. I have zero doubt the BATFE is rotten to the core and the vast majority of it's management needs to be relieved of their jobs, by force if necessary since it 'well known' they are not only incompetent but corrupt.
Speaking of corrupt, anyone know whee Lon Horiuchi is? Just saying.
Bitching without a plan is called whining.
Peace.
I never worked for ATF, but I know personally both the author and Kay. I also know the SAC she referred to. Every word of this is true.
Lie down with dogs.......
So many of you have completely missed the message. The first comment I received was filled with so much bile and impotent rage I could not, in good taste, publish it. The later ones have only confirmed how people are completely devoid of reality when they denounce Whistleblowers.
1. This was 20 years ago. This was well before any meaningful Whistleblower protections. The ATF of 20 years ago was just as bad as Mrs. Davis said and yo do not need me to tell you how exponentially worse it has been since. She was fighting the corruption within the AFT and eventually left it behind well before most of you were even politically active. This is the same mentality when people would attack Mike for being a former communist. It was when he was in high school, fer Petes sake. I can assure you that you will not find a more implacable foe to the corruption within the ATF than from Mrs. Davis. Just as with my father. So for that alone she needs to be cut some slack.
2. You have learned the total of absolutely nothing from Mike if you believe that the system should be abandoned to collectivists. Could you imagine an ATF if it were filled with Oathkeeping small government constitutionists? There is your nullification. What about if no one but SJW, gender and race studies graduates taught your children or filled the ranks of your National Guard and law enforcement? You want to change the system and not kill a whole bunch of people? You do it from the inside. The left figured this out a long time ago. The real revolutionaries, the true believers, did not burn their draft cards. They cut their hair and put on suits. They filled the halls of your institutions of government and learning. They now count your ballots. They now write your laws.
Supporting the men and women that stand with their oaths and behind enemy lines in the Socialist controlled enclaves is more important than ever.
Do you understand the significance now?
From your comment it is obvious that you are an enemy of freedom doing your best to undermine our absolute holy and G_D ordained right to be free of Government. Lick the hand of your federal master. Join the secret police. Hell become a federal death camp guard. We see you now for the government shill you are. The Federal military dictatorship you work for and support are the enemy of all life. We will be free of it. Enjoy the fires of hell. You deserve ,and have earned them.
"The ATF of 20 years ago was just as bad as Mrs. Davis said and yo do not need me to tell you how exponentially worse it has been since."
-See my bullet item number 3 above.
Steve
Thank you, Dutchman 6, for that clarity, and showing us how the grown ups think. A little maturity, goes a long way. It is easier to spread the bile, and vent your hate, than it is to think for a minute, and remember the long game, and why we're here. Through out govt., at every level, we have allies, allies who are trapped for whatever reason, who can be invaluable to us all, if we just understand that there, except for the grace of G*d, we could be. Anyone who calls themselves Christian, had better remember Mary Magdalene. A prostitute to whom Christ extended the hand of forgiveness, and redemption. And she was the last person to leave Golgotha, and the first person go back there to anoint Christs Body on Resurrection morning. When we run down our allies in the ATF, we are just like the Pharisees when Christ had his feet washed by Mary Magdalene, aghast that a known prostitute (former) was there, and touching Christs feet. To them, she was ALWAYS a prostitute. Christ had already forgiven her, and she was now a child of G*d. Dutchman 6 is right on the money, and you had better take his words to heart. Do you honestly think we will ever win this struggle for our country without the help of allies we have, on the inside? I've walked beside Mike, and spent time with him, shook his hand, and I'm as red blooded, and as patriotic American as you will find, and I was right there with the man, knowing his background. And I'm no angel, either. Grow up, y'all, time is short, the storm clouds have gathered, the enemy is at hand.
T. Paine -1. SAC Sicko's name is Mannie Gonzales. He has long since retired. I don't even know if he's still alive.
2. "Deceased friendly" - if you're referring to Kay Kubicki, she was proud of the work she did for 30 years. She not only became a dear friend, she was also godmother to my twins. I promise you, she wouldn't mind that I used her name at all.
3. - Is ATF "rotten to the core"? I certainly think so, even though I still know of some very good agents. Many are so ashamed by what the agency has become, they will not tell anyone they work there They really do put their lives on the line to go after hardcore violent criminals. I don't think they have anything to be ashamed of.
Do I think ATF needs to be abolished? Yep. Like most gov't agencies, It's too corrupt to exist.
I'm not looking for sympathy.
My point was that fighting our corrupt gov't will take every citizen that understands not only the problem, but the scope of the problem, working together. Anything less is exactly what they want. Once someone awakens and sees the reality, why would you dismiss them when they may have the very information we need to fight back? We certainly need to increase the number of people who are aware. Our gov't isn't a small, insignificant foe. And for the record, there aren't any real whistleblower protections. That's a myth. The 'us vs. them' mentality just helps ensure that fewer people come forward with the truth of what's happening. Why would we give the gov't that big break if our goal is to try to get and keep it in check?
Yes - I am saying 'we are not all bad'. We're not. I will say that as the corruption grows, there are fewer in LE who are good. The bad are running them off at an increasingly fast rate.
Aaron - thanks for the kind words. I have to disagree with one thing you said though. I do think that ATF is indeed the problem at this point, and that it is simply too corrupt to exist. Sadly so is most of the rest of the federal gov't. I think we have been remiss in educating ourselves and others, and our kids will pay the price.
Dutchman - thanks for the article and your comment. Sad to see how "our side" is full of people who want only to spew their imagined purity and label all others as statist enemies. Moronic.
So we are supposed to trust that theres "Good Guys" in the FLEO Circus, and they'll be our allies when it matters? But you'll crap all over folks that think electing Trump will buy us more time to prepare than we'll get if Hillary ends up in the drivers seat? People who are your ideological allies in all ways but that are worthy of your derision, but traiterous fedpigs are our friends? Yeah, the King's Man indeed. Disgusting that you think you can speak to us as if you were one of ours. If there really were so many "behind the lines", I don't see how it could've gottten so bad. A fantasy you really believe, or a lie you want us to believe. Either way, with you in charge, this site has nothing more to offer. A sad fate for this site.
Where does Sandy stand now though? She wanted to be an ATF agent....and one of the major things ATF does is enforce unnatural firearms law contrary to the founders intent.
Does she now support the repeal of NFA, GCA of 68 and FOPA of 86? If not, she's no different than she was then. She still supports infringement of the 2A.
Dutchman6, your point is well made. However, if you view the U.S. Federal Govt. as a Continuing Criminal Enterprise and all who materially benefit from it as Criminal Co-conspirators it becomes hard to justify your argument for change from within.
Once again, more disgusting comments from anonymous commenters who refuse to identify themselves, and don't give us any crap about Opsec, all you fools just want to sling mud and not be held accountable for it. This will be a long post so here goes...
I've worked in private security for 10+ years. From about 2007 to 2012 I was actively applying to local police agencies because I love this line of work. I've always been fairly "awake" politically, but only really opened my eyes in the last 5 years or so. There are tons of good people in these agencies, but most are not fully awake as both the former ATF agent and Matthew have said. All of you love to pontificate and act holier than thou, saying these people should know better and "made a deal with the devil".
The truth of the matter is, most people in law enforcement only think of it as a job and don't think deeply on subject like we do. It's not that they are intentionally evil, they just go to work, feed their family and don't think about it. One of the biggest conflicts that will arise when the shooting starts is the choice those "sleeping" people will make. After I realized the corruption and immorality of most laws, I decided that I could not be part of enforcing them. No matter how much I loved the job or how much good I could do, I refuse to be part of anything even as simple as enforcing seat belt laws. I gave up the career I loved because I refuse to be put in that situation.
Most people already in law enforcement will eventually have to make this same choice. Unfortunately they are already dependent on the government for their paycheck and will not risk their livelihood. There are some though, who if we can properly educate them, will come over to our side. However much corruption there may be in our police agencies, many people still go into that career because they want to do what is right. All of you who write them off as collaborators while refusing to try and help them are the real problem.
Matt Wilbanks
Oregon III%
Anonymous - I posted a comment above yours that spells out exactly where I stand now, but to further answer your question... I am a strict constitutionalist. If it is not allowed by the constitution, I don't think it should exist. I no longer believe ATF and the like can be fixed. I think it should be abolished. I believe the federal gov't should be extremely small and governed by the states. I am not defending ATF's unconstitutional laws in any way. If you'll notice in the video there's an agent stating his disgust at ATF swearing to uphold the constitution and then violating it. There actually are many in LE who feel the same way.
Anonymous in comment #1.....I'm not sure I can explain to someone who posts as "anonymous" what real stones it takes for these people to stand up, show their faces, announce their names, and then kick ATF in it's stones. You try it. Then we'll talk about some"stones".
Matt - Amen!
Aaron- "It is short sighted to say that all government employees are scum Neal, and that every employee has "kissed the ring of Satan and [joined] his minions" is far from true Anon."
There's a lot of apathy with ATF employees. They fear of losing their jobs if they whistle blow. It's on par with the Nuremberg Trials. "I was just doing my job" was not a good plea. Though they knew it was wrong to follow along, they did it anyways.
Quote:
{ Anonymous Anonymous said...
Where does Sandy stand now though? She wanted to be an ATF agent....and one of the major things ATF does is enforce unnatural firearms law contrary to the founders intent.
Does she now support the repeal of NFA, GCA of 68 and FOPA of 86? If not, she's no different than she was then. She still supports infringement of the 2A. }
Sandy,
The above were my thoughts exactly. I have not heard you, nor any other former ATF agent (Dodson, et al) say the premise is wrong. I have not heard you, nor any of the others say that the NFA, the FFA and the GCA should be repealed. I have heard, former ATF agents (Dodson, et al) say that ATF is a "...great agency with an important mission..".
Many, myself included, find it difficult to believe you (emotionally investing in you, feeling sympathy) when you lament you didn't get the chance to be a "good agent" and "go after the worst of the worst". Your friend Kay spent a career enforcing the National Firearms Act against the American People, didn't she? She believed fully that this was the right thing to do. If she believed otherwise she wouldn't have done it. After the initial assault at Waco, how many of those "good people" in ATF resigned in disgust amid murder and lies? How many? None? Not one? How many FBI agents, men of the "highest integrity", resigned in disgust after watching their agency commit mass murder? How many? Not one?
But, they're not all bad...
If you have turned over a new leaf, then say loud and for the record that the NFA, FFA, GCA, etc., should be repealed. Say the use of "background checks" to supposedly prevent crime, is in reality a prior restraint on a natural right.
Say it! And make me believe it!
Sandy, Dodson, Cefalu, et.al., you have not, and I believe will not, say these things because you don't believe them.
Strict Constitutionalist? Well, that is a nice thing to say, isn't it? It is even emotionally disarming.
Mike and Matt, you will please forgive me for finding it difficult not to say to the author, I don't believe you.
If I may borrow a line from a recent episode of Game of Thrones: "real friends are found on the battlefield."
Do you want to impose such a rigid purity test that it cannot allow for people having epiphanies or being horrified once getting a glimpse of things on the inside? That's foolish.
I'll go ahead and start with a bit of tongue in cheek.
"There is no such thing as 'innocence', only degrees of guilt."
It's tongue in cheek because I necessarily believe that there is such a thing as innocence, because if there is no innocence then there can be no guilt, because guilt is fundamentally characterized by harm to innocents. It would be illogical to talk of guilt at all, let alone in 'degrees' if there were no such thing as innocence.
But Jesus said, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
When asked to clarify, Jesus said, "Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Yes, there are bad apples. Yes, a bad apple spoils the whole barrel. Yes, if you don't want that to happen you assiduously remove bad apples before they get to the point where they leak their corruption onto all the other apples.
But no, none of that means that there aren't also bad apples outside the barrel, whether in other barrels or not. I don't agree with the typical protestation of ideological purity, not because I don't believe it, but because I don't believe it really matters. There is none good but God.
I've said this before, I'm willing to accept the moral responsibility for killing even innocent children in war, if war is necessary to protect some other innocent children. They don't even have to be more innocent children (either numerically or in degree of innocence). They just have to be innocent children I have a duty to protect.
Because no matter how much you avoid targeting innocents in war, they end up dead...often because the enemy noticed you trying to avoid targeting them and tried to use that against you. Make that always, in my personal experience, because I've never had an enemy that would hesitate to drag innocent children into harm's way to shield themselves.
I believe in innocence. But God forbids that I should arrogate myself competence to spare them the horrors of war which I am commanded to unleash.
It's not "us" vs. "them". This is a fight to the death between people who should be one nation, joined together by dies of kinship and affection. But none of us are guaranteed survival, the least tactical misstep can cost any of us our lives regardless of our claims to moral purity.
And continuing to affiliate with organizations which exist for no other purpose than to violate the laws of God and the Constitution of the United States of America...is not a small tactical misstep at this point.
I do know some federal agents of various agencies who are strong believers in the constitution and do their damnedest to uphold their oaths in increasingly difficult situations.
Perhaps we should consider befriending them rather than casting aspersions....
-Bubba Man
"Longbow" - I am not looking for sympathy and I do not speak for anyone else. Nor do I wish to answer for their words . I can only tell you what I believe.
I don't know how much clearer I can say it...If it's not allowed by the constitution, we never should have allowed it to EXIST in the first place. Of course that would include NFA, FFA, GCA and all the rest. When I took the oath to uphold the constitution when I was sworn on as an agent, I had never really read the constitution as I was "educated" by the Dept of Education (which I think should also be abolished). I understand, probably better than you do, that MANY who take that oath have not read it, or do not understand it, or don't believe in it.
Kay spent 12 years as an agent. Once she became enlightened, she spent the next 30 years fighting ATF corruption as an attorney. She was no longer employed by ATF. She walked the walk EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.... for 3 decades. I'll put her track record up against anyone's.
"Longbow", I hope I've answered all your questions. My questions to you are....what woke you up, how old were you, and what have you done since that time to truly make a difference? Because everything else is just bullshit. :)
Quote:
"And continuing to affiliate with organizations which exist for no other purpose than to violate the laws of God and the Constitution of the United States of America...is not a small tactical misstep at this point."
Well said!
>From your comment it is obvious that you are an enemy of freedom...
S(c)ammy Kerodin? Is that you?
Longbow,
I don't blame you at all for not trusting Sandy, I don't trust her either, I don't know her. Reagan had many faults but he was spot on when he said, "trust but verify".
The entire point of my post was to tell the anonymous armchair quarterbacks that despite how corrupt a government or individual agency may be, there are plenty of good people stuck in the machine. Evil can envelop the best of us, sometimes we wake up in time, sometimes we don't. You can only find out who is good and who isn't on an individual level by their current actions. This is why Mike V's ideas of small local cells are so important. We can bloviate all day online, but none of us truly knows the hearts and motivations of the rest.
To label everyone in government as evil is simply a sign that you are lazy and have given up. It is the strategy of cowards and simpletons.
Matt Wilbanks
Oregon III%
It's been said that you can fix up a house, but you can't fix up a neighborhood. That's because derelict houses attract derelict people and convince other house owners to neglect their properties once some critical mass is reached. One crooked cop on the beat is not so hard to correct. But what if the crooked cop is in Internal Affairs? What if it's not just one cop, but many? What if the whole Internal Affairs department is crooked? What if the command structure is crooked from top to bottom as Ms. Davis and others have rightly pointed out is true at BATFE? IMHO, BATFE has lost their honor, if in truth they ever had any. Many years ago, if a legion had been judged to have lost their honor the consequences were swift and terrible. The only way for a legion to regain their lost honor was through the process of "decimation". I will leave that up to you to research and, no, it doesn't mean what you think it means. What would the BATFE do to regain their lost honor? Do the leadership even know the concept of honor or place any value on it?
To Mike and Matt:
In this very blog you introduced us to a few cardinal rules of intelligence gathering. You start by asking yourself, "Who is this person? Why are they telling me this? Why are they telling me this at this time?" Then you go on to ask yourself, "If .GOV was trying to plant a significant mole in our midst, how would they do it any differently?" Have you two applied any of these principles to Ms. Davis' story?
To Ms. Davis:
Mike was once a radical leftist as was I. Mike has since become a staunch defender of American liberty and earned the forgiveness of many. More importantly perhaps, Mike has come to the point where he has forgiven himself. I'm not quite there yet and envy his inner peace. So I ask you, Ms. Davis. What will you do to atone for the sins you have undoubtedly committed in the service of BATFE against the Constitutional Rights of the American People? I think from the tone of many of the comments here, you can see that becoming a "whistleblower" in and of itself is not quite going to cut it. You regret how you were treated by BATFE, but I, for one, do not sense you have had your "road to Damascus" moment.
So I challenge you to answer in your own heart of hearts: Do you believe the State exists to serve the People? Or do you believe the People exist to serve the State? Moreover, to quote Dutchman6, "Choose this day whom you will serve!"
The (Um)repentant Linker
"Do you want to impose such a rigid purity test that it cannot allow for people having epiphanies or being horrified once getting a glimpse of things on the inside?"
Having read Ms Davis's story, and the posted reactions to it, I can only say that I agree with MissAnthropy's conclusion. Ideological purity is a luxury that cannot and should not necessarily survive when the balloon goes up. Certain thoughts come to mind. 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend,' is apropos. So is 'Let him without sin among you cast the first stone.' 'Trust, but verify' might fit also. Resistance movements have always taken their allies wherever they found them. I see no reason it should be any different in the current context. And I'm not talking about accepting anyone at face value, but neither should they be shot out of hand for want of ideological "purity", whatever that means when the SHTF. Just sayin'.
The (Um)repentant Linker,
I made a few inquires from some of the industry experts I inherited from the Old Man prior to printing it. She is 100% legit. I stand by this post.
"The (Um)repentant Linker,
I made a few inquires from some of the industry experts I inherited from the Old Man prior to printing it. She is 100% legit. I stand by this post."
Fair enough. You guys have more inside info than the rest of us probably have. If you guys trust her story then I guess I'll trust her story, at least as far as I trust you guys. ;-)
Heck, I don't even trust myself most days.
A high school acquaintance had, as a hobby and part time job, the collection of rattlesnakes for Bill Haast's "Serpentarium". He kept a few of them in tanks in his bedroom as pets. We all thought he was nuts. But he insisted, as long as he remembered that they were rattlesnakes, and treated them like rattlesnakes he was OK. The trouble would begin if he ever started treating them like bunnies or hamsters.
You guys have made the acquaintance of several current and former BATFE personnel. Just keep in mind that none of them are bunnies.
The (Um)repentant Linker
I had already answered many of these questions with my last post so I won't repeat here...see above. I also ask all of you the questions at the bottom of that post....What woke you and made you realize the importance of the constitution, how old were you, and what have you done to make a difference since that time?
I did not start out as a whistleblower. I fought ATF b/c they came after me and I was pissed. It was only after going to war with them, and watching them destroy the true whistleblowers who stood up for me (folks with everything to lose and nothing to gain), that I understood that I had a responsibility to honor them by coming to the aid of others when I could. I also take every opportunity to educate others on the evils of big gov't. My ATF nightmare happens to be a great example and I use it often.
'Mike earned forgiveness'....I'm not sure what he needed to be forgiven for. He was wrong in his mindset and actions. When he knew better, he did better. Seriously, what else can anyone do? I do understand though that it is harder to forgive oneself. I still deal with much guilt over those who were so harmed simply because they helped me by telling the truth.
Linker and anonymous - I have been around singing this same tune, using my real name since I was in my 20's. I'm now in my 50s. Matt didn't post this without vetting me out, which is very easy to do. I have almost 30 years, 7 'Davis vs. ATF/IRS/Dept of Labor' wins, and numerous people who have watched me evolve and mature over that time. I have had the absolute shit knocked out me through the years, and whenever I pop back up, singing my song, I get hit again. I have no doubt my name is going on another gov't list as we speak. But I have kids I worry will have to live under even worse tyranny than what we have now, so I keep trying.
To you 'purists' posting anonymously......I think I have fully addressed who I am and what my motivation is. My question to you is...Who in the hell are you and what have you done for the cause lately? For that matter, what have you ever done for the cause?
Again Matt W. - Amen!
Sandy,
I appreciate your candor.
" ...we never should have allowed it to EXIST in the first place. Of course that would include NFA, FFA, GCA and all the rest."
Thank you.
" I understand, probably better than you do, that MANY who take that oath have not read it, or do not understand it, or don't believe in it. "
I understand very well. I appreciate you saying so.
" Kay spent 12 years as an agent. Once she became enlightened, she spent the next 30 years fighting ATF corruption as an attorney. She was no longer employed by ATF. She walked the walk EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.... for 3 decades. "
Thank you for making that clear. It was not before.
" ...what woke you up, how old were you, and what have you done since that time to truly make a difference?"
What woke me ups the 1992 Election. I was at that time 28 years old. I saw a fraud had been perpetrated on the American People for the purpose of getting Clinton elected. That was the last general election in which I voted. I stopped supporting the Republican Party in 1994 after they caved on the Brady Law and the AWB. In 1993 I watched Waco happen and bald faced lies being told from every media outlet with the talking heads parroting "mass suicide". That event caused me to begin dig deep, digging into Ruby Ridge also. I studied both events and others, including OKC to exhaustion. In 1997-98 I was one of the major national distributors, as it was released on video tape, of the movie, "Waco: The Rules Of Engagement". I got to know Michael McNulty and Dan and Amy Gifford. McNulty once sent me video tape of Delta personnel and Hostage Roasting Team members stomping on the ashes of the Davidian Compound and asked to to see if I could identify any of them. Why would he do that? Because I had been a Soldier. I spent a total of fourteen years on active duty. I served first as an Army Ranger and later as a Special Forces Soldier. I knew people and they knew people. I gave McNulty's raw video to a close friend who was able to verify that Gen. Boykin had sent his boys from B Squadron to assist the FBI in committing mass murder. He was able to put names to the faces. At that particular moment I was out of the service. I have distributed videos, worked gun shows and the old Preparedness Expos all over the country trying to wake people up. I have been a professional gun dealer, during two different periods, operating a retail shop for several years in a good sized metropolitan area. In doing all of the above, I made myself a target and received some politically motivated Federal attention for it. I have done Special Operations. I have trained troops all over the world. I have been a Drill Sergeant. I have been a Combat Diver. I worked for two years in Iraq as a contractor, providing security for American Interests. That is some of what I have done. Did I make a difference? It seems not. Who knows? If I woke up one or two people, maybe it was worth it.
What do I do now? I write a blog and run my mouth about subjects which, everyone may presume, I know nothing.
Again, thank you for your candor.
This site contains a lot of energy and intelligence. What great stuff above.
Thank you Sandy for fighting some serious fights. I have no cred yet. California's new laws (and NY and CT and maybe more exec orders and in treaties soon to be) give all of us more chances to stand the heck up, spread the word outside our little echo chambers and lead by example (DO NOT COMPLY).
Ridiculing each other here and on other websites is a waste of energy and time. I hereby declare all purists to have "won" their individual flame wars. You are free now to actually do something in the physical world.
Yeah, lets get into bed with government. That will fix it right up, uh huh, riiiight.
Don't you all see? That is part of the controllers game - to make you THINK you have a chance if you just infiltrate them enough with "good guys" then you can change it all from within. Parties do that, and government (AKA the exeutive branch cabinet) is just the same.
It is lucy placing the football.....maybe you will kick it THIS time.
Us versus them is the only thing that hasn't been tried, truly tried, well umm since the revolutionary war itself anyway.
Delegitmizing the entire thing and everyone in it, because they are there taking part in the corruption, watching it and "feeling helpless to stop it" is guilty. Good guys quit and stand against the tyranny itself, rather than doing its bidding "for a pension".
Truth hurts sometimes and this is one of those times.
I submit to you that the Terry family weren't about to let it all just be a movie....
"Supporting the men and women that stand with their oaths and behind enemy lines in the Socialist controlled enclaves is more important than ever."
I get what you're trying to do here, I do. I STILL maintain there are good cops out there, but they are fewer in number each day.
The problem is that we are in Northern Ireland at this point. You will soon be able to tell the bad guys because they will be the ones shooting at you. But at this moment in time, trusting anyone still in the apparatus is like heading in to the local PSNI to speak with someone from MI5.
What is the maximum effective range of "good intentions" when you are employed by agencies that care not a whit about The Constitution, your rights or the LAW?
My person is ruined anyway because I continue (until those bastards decide to fire me) draw a federal civil service paycheck. I AM INSIDE and you have no idea that your rights, your laws and Constitution mean NOTHING to the people who draw paychecks and benefits from the TAX DOLLARS of citizens, through the FEDGOV jobs. that said, it is GROSSLY MISREPRESENTED the LOYALTIES of those FED GOV employees, as they will DO NOTHING TO RISK THE CONTINUED FLOW of those paycheck and benefits because their is NO SANCTION OR PUNISHMENT FOR THEM TO UPHOLD THEIR OATH OF OFFICE (yes, civil service is REQUIRED to swear an OATH to DEFEND AND UPHOLD the Constitution, but they DO NOT).
'
So to my detractors (Mr Willbank's with your blanket bullshit that NOT ALL those who work for US FEDGOV are "bad"), well you are wrong. They still work for the FED GOV, their efforts STILL abridge the US Constitution, they still support the entire corrupt infrastructure that's in place, ignorance of its actions be damned, lack of awareness (not being "awake") is no excuse either.
So from within the "enemies camp", I am telling you, and have loudly vocalized FREQUENTLY, you cannot negotiate with, bargain with, justify working for the ENEMY of FREEDOM without condoning it and supporting it and TAKING PAY AND BENEFITS from it, and then claim good intentions and ignorant bliss to your employers actions.
None are innocent, on its payroll, NO not even me, but it does my conscience good to know that even as I live within the enemies camp, I do all I can to give it the worst sort of heartburn as long as I live. My military service was begun out of fear of a draft in 91, and predicated on the well repeated lies of patriotic honor duty and country. In short is was a long service based on a lie for the corrupt governments aims. I have much to atone for in that respect, but clearing my name as being one of these foul traitors company, is my final aim. There is no INNOCENTS on the FED GOV payroll. That being said, NO employee can safely draw a paycheck WITHOUT TACITLY accepting and supporting the rest of the corrupt organization necessary evil, save to say that they should outrightly RENOUNCE that same corruption and QUIT, fully sever ties with it.
Sign Me, Neal Jensen (not afraid at all to PUT MY NAME on all my comments.)
I'm the anon poster who is too lazy to apply for a blog account....I used to sign my name to posts until there was confusion b/c someone else had the same name and was already registered...eh...whatever.
I'm also the poster who asked Sandy what she believes now....about repeal of all gun control laws.
I accept that answer. However, bells and whistles start to go off when she starts to "ELICIT" information from us about "what we've done"....read the article up in the feed: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2016/07/whiterose-sends-elicitation-is-it.html
I don't necessarily suspect Sandy of being a double agent....but I am not prepared to rule it out...."trust but verify" seems to again apply as others have noted.
Anon 12:10 - The Terry family - Thanks for bringing them up! I think they are a very important part of this debate. Ask any of them how they feel about the whistleblowers and other agents who helped them. I promise you, at the very least, they will tell you that they are grateful. The Terry family saw up close the price these agents paid for standing up. Had it not been for these 'evil insiders', the Terry family would have never known anything other than Brian was shot by drug dealers. I think you just made my argument.
Anon 10:20 - I am 'verified' if nothing else. But please understand, I am not trying to infiltrate Sipsey or any other group. Matt asked me if I would write my story for Sipsey and I was happy to do it. Nor am I'm asking anyone to trust me. You don't need to trust me in order to consider my argument.
Also, I need to clarify something. I would like to see all gun laws that are unconstitutional repealed. Most of us can probably agree that violent felons should lose their right to own guns. And by violent...I am not talking about someone convicted solely of a drug crime. I think the so-called war on drugs is unconstitutional from top to bottom. I think the DEA should be abolished along with ATF. It's not the govt's job to save us from ourselves.
I truly wasn't attempting to elicit information, I was actually just trying to make a point. But thank you Longbow for your story and your efforts. I had to chuckle when you said you started to wake up in 1992. That was the year my older brother found God. Yep, for the very same reason you started to wake up....Clinton in the white house. Unlike many of us, he knew his history at a very early age. He also understood the evils of our central banksters and their gov't puppets in D.C. Unlike me, he had actually read and studied the constitution. I used to roll my eyes at some of the "crazy" things he used to say. I get it now. He wasn't crazy. I was ignorant.
This thread on the Comey announcement is a must read:
https://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/79480356
Mr. Jensen,
You're obviously not understanding what I'm saying. Is everyone who works for the federal government by default assisting them in their actions? Yes. My entire point is the same as Sandy's, while they all may be complicit it is usually out of stupidity, naivete or poor education.
Writing them all off as "collaborators" is nothing but sheer laziness and bad strategy at that. I never claimed you could fix this government from inside, that is truly quite impossible. Any outreach to the people stuck inside the beast would be to bring them over to our side on a personal level. The truth is a large majority of the American public (including most government employees) just don't know or care, they go through life blissfully ignorant of the truth. Ignoring the sheep does not make them go away, it just makes it more likely that they will eventually choose to actively support the enemy.
Matt Wilbanks
Oregon III%
Sandy,
Lazy anon here again, LOL.
From the beginning, I've agreed with your argument....the Federal government is corrupt and out of control.
We disagree that "violent felons" shouldn't have their natural, negative right of self defense restored, *should they be released from prison*....but I'd wager we agree that they shouldn't be released in the first place, if they can't be trusted with a firearm.
It takes a big person to admit their ignorance...though some of the theories out there are too far out for even my tastes....but I see where you're coming from.
All the best in your endeavors....we all have a lot of work to do to restore the Republic and I welcome your help and input.
Take care.
Sandy, this is a tough crowd. They are tough because of what has been done to them and others and at no time has there ever been a hint of justice for the victims of this agency and some others as well. What they are asking themselves is why didn't you leave, why didn't you do more because they certainly would have, only they weren't there and they didn't have to deal with the shity dynamics that you and others did. As someone said, we all experience our awakening at different times and in different circumstances. I had my own to deal with and know the situation quite well. It is a very horrible experience to realize one day that your masters are evil and to serve them, you serve evil which is not abstract but real and who's victims have faces.
I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive the anger and perhaps hatred of some but your voice must be heard regardless. Very often we find that those who were there and witnessed are the ones handing the rope to the hangman. For my part I accept that none of us are pure, including me. What I want is for our children and grand babies to live free of this and these evil people. There is no longer any doubt how this will end but end it must.
"What have I ever done for the cause?"
I'm going to go ahead and answer the "elicitation" thus phrased.
I've committed to use weapons of mass destruction as necessary to destroy the illegitimate criminal conspiracy which has suppressed the Constitutional government of the United States of America. I will kill millions or indeed billions if it proves impossible to break the conspiracy by any other means.
That means I'm not just talking about killing everyone who is "in the government", I'm ready for killing pretty indiscriminately until the current tyranny is entirely destroyed.
No, that's not my preference, and I will forgo saying anything more about particular methods than I have already (though biological weapons are not the primary focus of my actual work, which is why I feel free to discuss them openly). I began this in the hope that indiscriminate killing wouldn't be necessary (I actually began it when I hoped for civil resolution), and while I no longer have any hope of avoiding a lot of bloodshed, I'm still rooting for less rather than more. But I am prepared to accept the worse case outcome required to destroy tyranny.
I'm aware that stating this openly and honestly is more likely to make the vast majority of people, whether or not they are "in the government", throw in their lot with the criminals rather than appear to condone my actions.
And I'm prepared to kill them all.
Because I will not permit this tyranny to continue, even if I have to wipe out the entire human race to destroy it. I still hope to at least avoid that extremity, but if not, if it becomes plain that extermination is required, then I will assent.
So then, to recap, people in ATF who see the corruption and fight it get fired, making them no longer ATF. That leaves ATF consisting of those who see the corruption and don’t fight it, those too brain-dead to see the corruption, and those that are the corruption. So it seems to me that “us vs. them” remains entirely appropriate attitude.
“Lazy Anon” - Thanks for the well wishes. I actually agree with you that most should not get out of jail, but that once time is served, they should have the opportunity to have their rights restored. As far as my ‘way out there thoughts’, I like to be challenged on my views. I find that has helped me evolve as much as anything. So if you feel inclined, challenge away. I’ll be more than happy to explain my position or maybe change it.
Anon 5:23 - I knew this was a tough crowd when I agreed to write an article. I’ve followed Sipsey since Kay recommended it to me right after F&F. To me that makes it a great place to make the ‘us vs. them’ argument. And seriously, there is nothing to forgive. I understand the anger….I’ve lived with the monster. It almost destroyed me, and I watched while it destroyed many people that I loved very much. Those who weren’t completely devastated, were all left very scarred. Like you, I don’t want our kids to live under, what is by anyone’s definition, tyranny.
Chiu - Well, I can promise you that I certainly didn’t mean to elicit that. And I don’t want to hurt your feelings, but are you running around loose?
I wasn't trying to challenge your views....I simply don't buy into some of the conspiracy theories expressed here or around the web. As one example: I don't think 911 was an "inside job"....it just illustrated how inept our government is at protecting us. I think the USG likely knew *something* was about to happen, but weren't really sure what exactly. I can't explain building 7....unless it contained sensitive information and was destroyed to cover up that trail. Same with the "Illuminati Rothchild Zionists"....ya, I think there are people that hold those delusions of grandeur and plot for world domination....I agree that the banking system is effectively running entire nations to the people's detriment....but I honestly cannot determine the degree to which they influence things.
That ought to piss off the true believers, LOL.
-Lazy.
Sandy, you clearly do want to hurt my feelings, or even provide that I suffer more tangible injury to my actual freedom.
That said, I don't run when I can walk, and I don't walk when I can...well, perhaps I shan't allow that information to be elicited just now. Nor am I "loose" in many senses of the word other than being free to do as my conscience dictates...far more so than most, it seems.
But if your friends in government want to try and change that, they are free to try...again. You can sign your name to their intention to destroy me, if you like. Or rather, you already have.
See, elicitation does work both ways.
Henry, i think you made the best point yet out of this discussion.
Chiu, i wish people shared your tolerance for the corruption. We would NOT be where we are if people held as firmly and absolutely to INTOLERANCE for the blatant criminality and corruption, but most folks cannot form that kind of solid personal resolve and that is why corruption and acceptance of it is so tolerated. It reflects badly of the moral status of most citizens, and weakness of character.
Sign me, Neal Jensen
The responses here are the exact reason why I have never stated where I worked and what I have done to earn my shame. I am awake, the LORD has led me to His Natural Law and that is enough. Thank you for sharing a part of your story. Stop now. Get in the fight. God bless you.
Ms. Davis, I wanted to add something. I've read your replies here. You are a very smooth writer, calming even and much of your arguments seek feeling from yourself and the reader. Idea, work to convert women. Middle class women with children. Tell them that their children are in danger from tyranny. Explain the threat in terms only a mother can explain to a mother. Empathy and nurture are not strong traits among the warrior males. You would do well at winning hearts to liberty among professional women and mothers. I don't trust you, too smooth. Get to work, time is short, prove it.
Dear Lazy :) - The banking system is actually not run poorly at all. It's the biggest and most brilliant scam ever pulled on any nation going back to at least Rome. This system is working very well for the global bankers and their corporate bedfellows. As they manipulate our markets, creating more and bigger bubbles, they are becoming more rich and more powerful. This, while we become even more entrenched in debt. I believe they are the main reason all these LE agencies and PDs are getting tanks. Did you notice where all the tanks were when the bankers closed the banks in Greece? Yep, standing in between the people of Greece who had their money stolen and the banks that stole that money. In this country of course those tanks might be used to impose martial law any day now.
Fred - If you meant me when you said to 'stop and get in the fight', I joined the fight decades ago. I have put my energy and money into waking others up to the horrors of tyranny that come from a big centralized gov’t, and I never miss an opportunity to do it. Like you, I firmly believe that the best way to win our constitutional republic back is to educate as many as we can whenever we can. I am still despised by many in LE who see me as a traitor, and my friends and family sometimes run when they see me coming. I figure that I must be doing something right. :) Also, maybe I didn't make it clear, but I haven’t been an agent for 20 years. As a disclaimer, I left, not b/c I was being noble. I left b/c ATF had just about destroyed me and I had kids to raise. Regardless, I know that God puts me exactly where I need to be when I need to be there. As far as being a smooth writer, thank you, but I’m actually not. I have just told this story to so many people, for so long, that I can tell it in my sleep. It’s been polished smooth over decades. And yep, I have seen many of my female friends (especially moms) wake up. In turn, most have been tenacious in waking up others. I think you’re spot on that there’s nothing like a mom seeing a potential threat to her kids to slap the apathy and denial right out of her. Lastly, it doesn’t matter that you don’t trust me. You are having the debate with me and people are reading these kinds of debates. I think it’s where we have to start. Thanks for your time and efforts!
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