I recently added another thousand rounds to my inventory. Time to check and see if I need a couple thousand in other calibers too. The reloading supplies will be added to also. I suggest others do the same.
I guess theyar e wanting to stockpile them for us so we will have access wehn theya re needed. Ask them to order a few 45 and 9 millies, too, for those of us who don't use 40s. And do NOT overdo yourself, OK?
Buying 450 million rounds of pistol ammo is silly.
Buying 450 million rounds of ammo that fits the MP5/40 is concerning.
Buying 450 million rounds of ammo you can use in multiple weapons systems is logistically sound procurement. But why? The military doesn't use .40 cal. Curiouser and curiouser.....
The fact that the Homies just let a contract for 450 million rounds of .40 caliber, suggests they are going to war. Lets look at potential enemies. Well, there's no major threat of a military invasion from Mexico; the Bahamas don't have a navy, Haiti is too poor, Canada has already pledged to sending troops to shoot Americans, so that narrows the field right there. This administration is gearing up folks! Are you? I can't wait to see the spin the SPLC puts on this!
Let's see, how many rounds would I need to police the American people in a proper police state, that most of them don't realize is there yet?
How many rounds would I need, when they eventually do realize it? How many will I need when they start resisting, if we can't keep a lid on the media or the media no longer matters because the people don't believe them anymore? No unauthorized, unmonitored communications and so ALL sources of information will be regime "safe".
That pretty much cover it?
You can only do so much training so either they are stockpiling for a perceived future need or perhaps that and the training of new personnel to replace those who are no longer field effective, for some reason. I won't use the term combat effective because they haven't declared war on anybody and aren't likely to because that would be a "go button" and they are all about prevention, preemption, storytelling and effective labeling, lies in other words. Besides there is a all that food in the country that the cities are going to need during the economic recovery...
Come on folks! What's the safest course of action here, considering ALL available information? They are planning to lock up the country and impose whatever they want. Remember that little meeting they had about how many people they were going to have to detain in their camps and how many they were going to have to eliminate?
It certainly has all the features of military theory and planning, if you think like Stalin and they clearly embrace a consideable amount of it. It is also clear that the constitution and bill of rights are going to be permanently "suspended". Wanna bet what they eventually replace them with? What do you want to bet that it resembles the former Soviet constitution? But that can't be because there are no Marxists involved, according to them and their media and entertainment assets. All that video is faked.
I'm hoping they will start donating them boxes to the local ranges for citizens to become proficient. Or they'll store them somewhere where citizens could obtain extra rounds after TSHTF.
This purchase wreaks of suspicious activity. Was it purchased with cash, or a credit card that doesn’t bear the purchasers name? Sounds like terrorism or workplace violence.
Almost half a BILLION rounds? What, for training purposes? You'd have to have every DHS employee out on the range for a year shooting all the time to use that amount up! And it's all expanding point rounds like that? That's expensive stuff, you don't waste that for training, you'd use the FMJ stuff for range practice, at least most of it would be.
Good Lord, what does DHS have in mind for all that heat?
Just saw on another web-site that the contract also calls for 175 million rounds of .223 over 4 years. The final number is subject to many factors including budget and need. Once again, who is the enemy?
A bullet that expands like that is O.K., but oh, the outrage about "cop-killer bullets" that a law-abiding citizen might happen to have in his possession. And all the internet warriors are hollering about "buying frenzy" that drives prices up because of demand. Yell at DHS, looks like they want to buy a good portion.
Because real men shoot pistol/rifle in pistol format rounds that pierce vests and the foo are out to intimidate, not actually fight? .40, invented because Fibbers couldn't handle 10mm much less .460 or .223 in pistols?????
OK - I have no idea why they contracted for this much (to lower the cost per round perhaps?). BUT I do know that one metro PD I am familiar with goes thru 640K rounds per year - just for annual qualifications. 10 departments that size raises the ante to 6.4 million. So perhaps this isn't such an issue after all, maybe they are just trying to be good stewards of our tax dollars??? I don't know -maybe someone ought to have their congress critter find out.......
If the homies are like the California and New York City cops, they can't hit the broad side of a barn. Perhaps that's why they might need that many rounds.
ROFLMBO @ Anony 9.09- you know a cop who's shooting 640K rounds a year to qualify? When does he work? Take 649K and divide by 365 gives him 1753 rounds a day... 73 rounds per hour. Someone please get my chest waders and pass the SCUBA gear.
This article goes along with it! http://thecentristpoint.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/government-buying-out-all-the-5-56-military-surplus-ammo-is-telling-ammo-dealers-to-stop-selling-to-their-vendors-civilians/
At 200 rounds per person... You're looking at 2.25 million people they are looking to arm. That's a hefy number indeed. Do we have numbers to compare it with? Who issues a .40S&W at the federal level?
I thought that _I_ was bad at math, but some of you folks need to go back to school.
640K rounds for a department like San Diego PD, who had about 1500 officers last I heard, means 426 rounds per officer. If they qualify every three months, like they did when I worked there, that is only 106 rounds per qual. Much more believable than the comment about one cop shooting 640k rounds.
DHS, or whoever gets this ammo, might be expecting to shoot at their own monster - the FSA. If there are 100 million of them (probably a conservative guess, there may be more), that is only 4.5 rounds per scumbag.
Or, if that ammo is intended for the III community: there are probably only 3 million of us, so that would be 150 rounds per IIIper. DHS might imagine that this would be enough, given that they will also be shooting at us with .223 and 12 ga (all those M4 Benellis that they bought for the IRS, DHS, Dept of Education, Dept of Agriculture, EPA, etc., etc.)
Also - for the person who was misinformed about why the FBI chose the .40S&W, it wasn't because of recoil, it was because there are too many split-tails and guys of small stature in the FBI whose hands are too small for a .45 or the 10mm. That is why the CHP (California Highway Patrol) went to the forty, as well. I was working there when they made the decision to go to the .40 S&W.
640k/year for the DEPARTMENT AS A WHOLE, not individual officers, is what he said. "one metro PD" means a Metropolitan Police Department, not an individual.
If they have 1000 officers (not unreasonable; LAPD has something like 15000 officers), that's 640 rounds per officer per year. Not a lot of rounds there, certainly not enough to maintain decent proficiency.
A school (university) police department I know of goes through at least 2k per officer every year, .40 and 5.56. Mostly FMJ practice ammo, but I gather at least some of that figure is their JHP duty ammo.
Also, as others have pointed out, these figures are spread out over a 4-5 year time span. When you consider that the Coast Guard and Border Patrol both issue .40 sidearms and 5.56/.223 carbines, and they both need to practice regularly, that breaks down to not-as-huge a number. And it sort of locks in the price on the relatively expensive duty ammo (which does have to be periodically shot up, because repeated chambering of rounds is bad for the ammo) at current prices rather than having to potentially pay more in future.
Fiscally, it makes a fair degree of sense.
And I agree with TinCan Assassin, I hope it's for the USCG and the BP folks (though I bet others are piggy-backing on this as well).
To give some idea as to how the big numbers make sense, a USBP trainee goes through about 2000 rounds before leaving the academy during training, practice quals, and basic proficiency. A class is 50 students, so that's over 100,000 rounds per class, not counting remedials, which may bump the number up to 110,000 rounds or so.
In 2007-2012, the academy was graduating some 100+ classes per year, resulting in easily 10,000,000 rounds per year just to new agent training.
A USBP agent goes through quarterly firearms qualification, which is a 72 round course, usually with some additional training tossed in, so about 400 rounds per year minimum that they will fire in the course of training.
Ammo issue is usually 150-300 rounds per quarter (depending on stations' budgets and ammo availability), so each agent will get 600-1200 rounds per year issued to them, of which they might only use 400 for official training - the rest is proficiency ammo for them on their time, or sometimes for proficiency fire after quals if there's more training scheduled.
Take let's say 25,000 agents times around 1000 rounds per year and you get some 25,000,000 rounds per year. That's not including firearms instructors (who go through ammo at the cyclic) or Bortac/Borstar and SRT or whatever they're calling it these days.
Spread this out over a potential 5 year contract to supply up to 450,000,000 rounds to DHS, and 125,000,000 could easily go to USBP alone, if not closer to 150-200M.
Add in the potential for what the academy was burning through in the last 5 years of the hiring pushes and you're looking at over half that 450M going to USBP. Hiring for USBP is down, but ATK has to plan for it anyway.
Add in other branches of DHS, US Marshals, FBI, US Customs, etc., almost all of whom use the .40 S&W as their primary round, and you end up with a very plausible, normal number to base a contract off of.
US Marshal service just had a hiring push for 5000 applicants - if they take even 1000 of those, with training similar to USBP, that puts them in the 2 million round mark, if over 5 years, 10 million round mark just for new hires. Add in quarterly qualifications, and you're looking at millions upon millions more rounds.
450 million rounds is a good forecast number for the 5 year period (1 + 4 extension).
39 comments:
what is this quantity in context of say quarterly production, of all rounds from the supplier?
This Executive Order might have something to do with it.
Please God, let it be for the Border Patrol and the Coast Guard. That, I could grok.
Not the TSA.
I recently added another thousand rounds to my inventory. Time to check and see if I need a couple thousand in other calibers too.
The reloading supplies will be added to also. I suggest others do the same.
Their sissy britches can't handle a .45?
They're going to give it away to gun owners?
I guess theyar e wanting to stockpile them for us so we will have access wehn theya re needed. Ask them to order a few 45 and 9 millies, too, for those of us who don't use 40s.
And do NOT overdo yourself, OK?
Buying 450 million rounds of pistol ammo is silly.
Buying 450 million rounds of ammo that fits the MP5/40 is concerning.
Buying 450 million rounds of ammo you can use in multiple weapons systems is logistically sound procurement. But why? The military doesn't use .40 cal. Curiouser and curiouser.....
The fact that the Homies just let a contract for 450 million rounds of .40 caliber, suggests they are going to war. Lets look at potential enemies. Well, there's no major threat of a military invasion from Mexico; the Bahamas don't have a navy, Haiti is too poor, Canada has already pledged to sending troops to shoot Americans, so that narrows the field right there. This administration is gearing up folks! Are you? I can't wait to see the spin the SPLC puts on this!
Geeee.....
Must have some really high capacity magazines!
Let's see, how many rounds would I need to police the American people in a proper police state, that most of them don't realize is there yet?
How many rounds would I need, when they eventually do realize it? How many will I need when they start resisting, if we can't keep a lid on the media or the media no longer matters because the people don't believe them anymore? No unauthorized, unmonitored communications and so ALL sources of information will be regime "safe".
That pretty much cover it?
You can only do so much training so either they are stockpiling for a perceived future need or perhaps that and the training of new personnel to replace those who are no longer field effective, for some reason. I won't use the term combat effective because they haven't declared war on anybody and aren't likely to because that would be a "go button" and they are all about prevention, preemption, storytelling and effective labeling, lies in other words. Besides there is a all that food in the country that the cities are going to need during the economic recovery...
Come on folks! What's the safest course of action here, considering ALL available information? They are planning to lock up the country and impose whatever they want. Remember that little meeting they had about how many people they were going to have to detain in their camps and how many they were going to have to eliminate?
It certainly has all the features of military theory and planning, if you think like Stalin and they clearly embrace a consideable amount of it. It is also clear that the constitution and bill of rights are going to be permanently "suspended". Wanna bet what they eventually replace them with? What do you want to bet that it resembles the former Soviet constitution? But that can't be because there are no Marxists involved, according to them and their media and entertainment assets. All that video is faked.
I'm hoping they will start donating them boxes to the local ranges for citizens to become proficient. Or they'll store them somewhere where citizens could obtain extra rounds after TSHTF.
WV: exised hopecura (yep, pretty much!)
It is FABULOUS having youyr voice back among us, Mike!
Ugh, shortages of large pistol primers will probably come about because of this.
“If you see something, say something”.
This purchase wreaks of suspicious activity. Was it purchased with cash, or a credit card that doesn’t bear the purchasers name? Sounds like terrorism or workplace violence.
http://www.usrkba.org/american-stasi
Well does this mean they have a large operation upcoming? This is mainly a police round .... and is used in handguns and subguns.
Has anyone else been taking note of ammo sales going F&F as it becomes more and more obvious we are going to end up with a weak candidate like Romney?
Probably because it is cheaper than ordering 120 million every year...
Almost half a BILLION rounds? What, for training purposes? You'd have to have every DHS employee out on the range for a year shooting all the time to use that amount up! And it's all expanding point rounds like that? That's expensive stuff, you don't waste that for training, you'd use the FMJ stuff for range practice, at least most of it would be.
Good Lord, what does DHS have in mind for all that heat?
First thing that comes to mind: I can run a lot of 40 real dadgum fast through a subgun if the ammo ain't cummin' outta my pay.
Because the 'Zombies' aren't just going to kill themselves....
Have you read about the FBI cookie caper over at Survivalblog.com?
They are going to need some serious ammo when they issue each one of the 60k+ TSA morons sidearms and turn them into the newest NKVD.
Just saw on another web-site that the contract also calls for 175 million rounds of .223 over 4 years. The final number is subject to many factors including budget and need. Once again, who is the enemy?
A bullet that expands like that is O.K., but oh, the outrage about "cop-killer bullets" that a law-abiding citizen might happen to have in his possession. And all the internet warriors are hollering about "buying frenzy" that drives prices up because of demand. Yell at DHS, looks like they want to buy a good portion.
I'll take even just 1/10 of 1% of that. Plenty enough for all the FSA living dead zombies, Gubbment or otherwise.
B Woodman
III-PER
What do you call 450 million rounds?
449,999,999 too many OR not nearly enough!
I would vote for "not nearly enough". I have seen cops and correctional offices efforts while re-qualifying. ;)
"Why Did The DHS Just Order 450 Million Rounds Of .40 Caliber Ammunition?"
The centgov denies these resources to the stupid tax sheeple while increasing its own ammo stocks for the coming event.
THE NDRP E.O. OF 3/16/2012. Read Ann Barnhardt's explanation of this EO:
http://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/barnhardt-why-the-march-16th-2012-white-house-executive-order-is-different/
Because real men shoot pistol/rifle in pistol format rounds that pierce vests and the foo are out to intimidate, not actually fight? .40, invented because Fibbers couldn't handle 10mm much less .460 or .223 in pistols?????
I found the original press release from ATK on this: http://atk.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=25280&item=124123
It's indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity spread out over 5 years rather than an up front delivery.
IQ/ID also means no money up front.
Its a risky contract for Federal.
DHS has also put out solicitations for 175m 223 in the same format. One year w/4 option years IQ/ID.
Interestingly enough, they are specifying Remington ammo for that one.
When they start soliciting for 338l and 50 BMG - its on.
OK - I have no idea why they contracted for this much (to lower the cost per round perhaps?). BUT I do know that one metro PD I am familiar with goes thru 640K rounds per year - just for annual qualifications. 10 departments that size raises the ante to 6.4 million. So perhaps this isn't such an issue after all, maybe they are just trying to be good stewards of our tax dollars??? I don't know -maybe someone ought to have their congress critter find out.......
I think 18rds per citizen @300 Mil won:t be enuff for the Gang that can"t shoot straight..45ACP and 308 will be the answer!!!
If the homies are like the California and New York City cops, they can't hit the broad side of a barn. Perhaps that's why they might need that many rounds.
- Old Greybeard
ROFLMBO @ Anony 9.09- you know a cop who's shooting 640K rounds a year to qualify? When does he work? Take 649K and divide by 365 gives him 1753 rounds a day... 73 rounds per hour.
Someone please get my chest waders and pass the SCUBA gear.
This article goes along with it!
http://thecentristpoint.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/government-buying-out-all-the-5-56-military-surplus-ammo-is-telling-ammo-dealers-to-stop-selling-to-their-vendors-civilians/
Feel free to post it on your blog.
At 200 rounds per person... You're looking at 2.25 million people they are looking to arm. That's a hefy number indeed. Do we have numbers to compare it with? Who issues a .40S&W at the federal level?
I thought that _I_ was bad at math, but some of you folks need to go back to school.
640K rounds for a department like San Diego PD, who had about 1500 officers last I heard, means 426 rounds per officer. If they qualify every three months, like they did when I worked there, that is only 106 rounds per qual. Much more believable than the comment about one cop shooting 640k rounds.
DHS, or whoever gets this ammo, might be expecting to shoot at their own monster - the FSA. If there are 100 million of them (probably a conservative guess, there may be more), that is only 4.5 rounds per scumbag.
Or, if that ammo is intended for the III community: there are probably only 3 million of us, so that would be 150 rounds per IIIper. DHS might imagine that this would be enough, given that they will also be shooting at us with .223 and 12 ga (all those M4 Benellis that they bought for the IRS, DHS, Dept of Education, Dept of Agriculture, EPA, etc., etc.)
Also - for the person who was misinformed about why the FBI chose the .40S&W, it wasn't because of recoil, it was because there are too many split-tails and guys of small stature in the FBI whose hands are too small for a .45 or the 10mm. That is why the CHP (California Highway Patrol) went to the forty, as well. I was working there when they made the decision to go to the .40 S&W.
@Anon, 3/21 0603:
640k/year for the DEPARTMENT AS A WHOLE, not individual officers, is what he said. "one metro PD" means a Metropolitan Police Department, not an individual.
If they have 1000 officers (not unreasonable; LAPD has something like 15000 officers), that's 640 rounds per officer per year. Not a lot of rounds there, certainly not enough to maintain decent proficiency.
A school (university) police department I know of goes through at least 2k per officer every year, .40 and 5.56. Mostly FMJ practice ammo, but I gather at least some of that figure is their JHP duty ammo.
Also, as others have pointed out, these figures are spread out over a 4-5 year time span. When you consider that the Coast Guard and Border Patrol both issue .40 sidearms and 5.56/.223 carbines, and they both need to practice regularly, that breaks down to not-as-huge a number. And it sort of locks in the price on the relatively expensive duty ammo (which does have to be periodically shot up, because repeated chambering of rounds is bad for the ammo) at current prices rather than having to potentially pay more in future.
Fiscally, it makes a fair degree of sense.
And I agree with TinCan Assassin, I hope it's for the USCG and the BP folks (though I bet others are piggy-backing on this as well).
To give some idea as to how the big numbers make sense, a USBP trainee goes through about 2000 rounds before leaving the academy during training, practice quals, and basic proficiency. A class is 50 students, so that's over 100,000 rounds per class, not counting remedials, which may bump the number up to 110,000 rounds or so.
In 2007-2012, the academy was graduating some 100+ classes per year, resulting in easily 10,000,000 rounds per year just to new agent training.
A USBP agent goes through quarterly firearms qualification, which is a 72 round course, usually with some additional training tossed in, so about 400 rounds per year minimum that they will fire in the course of training.
Ammo issue is usually 150-300 rounds per quarter (depending on stations' budgets and ammo availability), so each agent will get 600-1200 rounds per year issued to them, of which they might only use 400 for official training - the rest is proficiency ammo for them on their time, or sometimes for proficiency fire after quals if there's more training scheduled.
Take let's say 25,000 agents times around 1000 rounds per year and you get some 25,000,000 rounds per year. That's not including firearms instructors (who go through ammo at the cyclic) or Bortac/Borstar and SRT or whatever they're calling it these days.
Spread this out over a potential 5 year contract to supply up to 450,000,000 rounds to DHS, and 125,000,000 could easily go to USBP alone, if not closer to 150-200M.
Add in the potential for what the academy was burning through in the last 5 years of the hiring pushes and you're looking at over half that 450M going to USBP. Hiring for USBP is down, but ATK has to plan for it anyway.
Add in other branches of DHS, US Marshals, FBI, US Customs, etc., almost all of whom use the .40 S&W as their primary round, and you end up with a very plausible, normal number to base a contract off of.
US Marshal service just had a hiring push for 5000 applicants - if they take even 1000 of those, with training similar to USBP, that puts them in the 2 million round mark, if over 5 years, 10 million round mark just for new hires. Add in quarterly qualifications, and you're looking at millions upon millions more rounds.
450 million rounds is a good forecast number for the 5 year period (1 + 4 extension).
Hope that clears this up a bit.
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