"Zorro" (Little Jimmy Vann?) rides again, and again, and again . . .

This Zorro attacks the weak and poor and lends aid and comfort to the powerful. (A swordless Zorro -- not even a gay blade -- since Little Jimmy is still on suicide watch. The big ears are on the alert for any agency criticism. Nice tie, though.)

When we last left the back-and-forth at CleanUpATF.org, moderator Doc Holliday had cautioned both Avatar and the newly-popped government pimple, "Zorro."

Posted 09 March 2010 - 10:24 PM

Zorro and Avatar, take this fight outside please. We are trying to raise the publics confidence in ATF which is by anyones measurement at an all time low. ATF is currently w/o leadership or agency integrity. Bottom line on this issue is: ATF works for the public and regulate a very important industry. After so many questionable FFL cases over the last couple yrs with confidential settlements or $25 fines, it is clear to me that we are not enforcing the law to the spirit of the law and we are not regulating the industry fairly and without prejudice. I support ATF pursuing doggedly any FFL who is intentionally and willfully trying to play games with the firearms laws. However, ATF never needs to cheat, lie, withold or bully to do this. Thats how we know we are the good guys. If we do this OR so Im told even give the appearence of inpropriety, we are wrong. I have been involved in hundreds of Federal prosecutions and am proud to say I have worked with some of the best prosecutors in the country, maybe the world. NOT ONCE have I ever seen a Federal prosecutor threatened with sanctions and so obviously withold evidence. ZORRO Please read the certified transcripts provided for you. Leave out the techy stuff and tell me you approve of this type of conduct? I believe it is incumbent upon ATF to be open to scrutiny and Americans be allowed to questions it governments regulations without fear of being labeled a malcontent or an enemy of the state. When was the last time ATF engaged the industry, especially those critical of the laws and/or regulations to have a quarterly sitdown to review upcoming regulations for their input. I just read an ATF FFL newsletter, in which I read that ATF is now unilaterally deciding that a pistol grip shotgun is not a shotgun, not a rifle and not a pistol, but not an NFA weapon. What is it?

Yes, fascinating question, that last one. A question that CPT Jonathan Tuttle's mole Waldo says has the fifth floor of the "Concrete Asshole of the Universe" in a tizzy.

Avatar took Doc Holliday's request to heart. "Zorro" on the other hand (Little Jimmy?) just couldn't shut up.

Posted Yesterday, 08:25 AM

Doc,

This fight is not mine, it was brought here. I am surprised it did not show sooner. As this forum grew and real life greivances were aired I fully expected others to try using it as a platform for their personal business, tainting its intent and mission. If you will notice my posting record, I did not intervene until outsiders came into family business bringing old news and old fights with them that had no connection to the content of this board. Also please note that each of the whopping two posts I put up I said very clearly this is not the place for regulatory differences of opinion or old crusades; however, when half the story gets posted I will ask questions and challenge. One of the weaknesses I see in ATF is that even when we are right we either shut up or just roll over and take it although the vast majority of our employees either have no dog in the firearms industry fight or overtly try to protect the law abiding while dealing fairly with the inadvertent violator. I suspect that an ATF employee publicly pushing back is quite unexpected.

I am aware of the prosecution's conduct leading up to what would have been the second Friesen trial. To answer your question - no, I do not agree with it. I also believe drawing a comparison between US vs. Friesen and the events spoken of in this forum is faulty at best. Unlike the issues that you folks are trying to address on here, there was an immediate and predictable consequence to that action; the case was damaged beyond repair and a bad actor skated with a $25 fine. For those who don't know any more reading these threads, one might walk away thinking bad agents were involved or the case had no merit; harrassing innocent people just trying to make a living which in my opinion is not the case - hence my reapeated question as to how the case even got in the courtroom. I have yet to work with an agent who tried pressing an unknowing violator w/a clean record into a prison term and it seems out of character for the norm. I am sure we have some rotten apples (show me a government agency or any segment of society that doesn't), but based on my experience in ATF I assume an agent to be well intentioned until proven otherwise. Contact me off board - I will provide you the transcripts from the trial if you are interested. It will shed some light on reality like the serial number no one could see and "the ressurection" - you might even catch some religeon reading about that number rising from the paint. I can also offer up answers to your other questions that from your post you may be pleasantly surprised with.

Not everyone in the puzzle palace has forgotten the taxpayers or fails to see a broken trust between government and the governed (not an exclusive ATF commodity). While I am detached from what most of you speak of in these threads, I respect your goals of accountability and integrity and my hope is to help cut down on distractions from those goals by people outside the agency who have their own agendas. Past performance has shown that everything outside that agenda is secondary. Ask Tom Bowers, Bill Akins, or Brian Poling; all firearms industry guys, all damaged or ruined; not by the anti-gun lobby, but by the wars now being brought into this forum.

Re: the pistol gripped shotguns - old - REAL old. They are "firearms" as they don't meet the definition of a shotgun. I seem to recall the subject in an early 90s newsletter and unless there was a significant change in definition between 68-early 90s, it's business as usual since the GCA was passed. It was recently repeated and now the current generation thinks it's "news", cackling like a fox got in the hen house. If the hens read the book more often, there wouldn't be such a ruckus.

If you or any of the other ATF members want me to step out I will respect that and not post here again. I was content to just watch the circus from the bleachers for years prior to its arrival here and can be again.

The views and opinions expressed by the author are just that. They are not the official opinion of anyone anywhere in any capacity.

Again, there's that curious disclaimer. I'd bet my left nut that Zorro is either using a government computer, or started out using one, because he's definitely got an agency POV. This "Zorro" stands the Zorro concept on its head, attacking the poor and weak and giving succor to the powerful in his own agency.

Doc Holliday responds:

Posted Yesterday, 10:14 AM

We want NO ONE who is interested in getting ATF back in the business of protecting the public to "Step OUT". And We really want to focus on the abuses and mismanagement that are bringing this agency to its knees. The Pistol grip shotgun matter was addressed in the 2009, I repeat November 2009 FFL newsletter, Not in the 1990s. You are clearly far more knowledgeable than I and in fact most of the ATF agent I know. However when I see an ATF sponsored news letter article that is sooooooooo poorly interpreted it distresses me. I will post the news letter later, however, we may try to set up an arena for these sort of issues so not to keep the meat of this website out of the mainstream posts. If not a "shotgun, Pistol or Rifle, and not an any other weapon", #1 what is it? #2 So if one of my bad guys saws off this NON shotgun, how go I convict him if hes not a felon? "Defense atty, Your honor, I would like to introduce exhibit 1, ATFs determination that my clients alleged sawed off shotgun, in fact is NOT a shotgun". If a lowly street agent like me cannot easily figure this one out, HOW can I support revoking a FFLs license for not understanding it. Its only one of two things; We either have not clearly thought this representation through, OR its the same old IT IS BECAUSE WE ARE ATF AND WE SAY ITS SO. Look, a good faith determination with common sense says a shotgun IS a shotgun, whether the factory OR my son, or your daughter chooses to put a pistol grip on it. Shotguns ARE designed to be fired from the shoulder. That doesnt mean they have to be. If we put props on a shotgun, does it cease to be a shotgun and become a helicopter which now is regulated by the FAA? Im certain you can see the underlying controversy here. Yourself and Avatar may continue this thru the CUATF email system if you like. Thats why we provided it, and No do not stand down. We want ALL the truth, not just OUR truth. That would be too much like Mr. Melson and crew.

Good response, and Doc again tells "Zorro" to take it off the boards and into the CUATF email sysem. Zorro, however, ain't havin' any of that. Why? Because this ain't really about Avatar's or Len Savage's allegations. Not entirely.

Posted Yesterday, 09:42 PM

It's all about truth, Doc, and you guys weren't getting it. If those posts were cut and dried complete stories I would never have intervened even if they were irrelevant to the mission but sound bites and spin are tough to watch being thrown on your co-workers. Enough about the clique; onto greener pastures.

478.11 "Firearm" is where the beloved PG shotguns are - along with stripped receivers, silencers, AOW and whatever I can't think of right now. Transfers to under 21 or interstate to nonlicensees is generally prohibited, but two specific exemptions are carved out for Rifles and Shotguns (478.99). ATF didn't help matters for so many years as we gave people two choices: Long Gun or Handgun. We finally wised up in 2008 and offered "other" for items that did not fit those two categories. I really believe the previous edition of the newsletter as I had to find that specific passage when I was in the field which was most definitely prior to 2009; the worn memory doesn't always work, but I'm pretty comfortable on that one. At any rate, if you are working a 922(g) case and a frame, receiver, or PG is invloved - possession of a "firearm".

I have to take a break now, Doc. Unless I get sucked back in or can actually offer some good info, I'll keep the bench warm.

The views and opinions expressed by the author are just that. They are not the official opinion of anyone anywhere in any capacity.

Again, that curious disclaimer. You get the feeling this guy really is echoing ATF officialdom? As I said before, I sure hope Len Savage's case goes to trial. Then we can find out who "Zorro" really is.

Mike
III