Open Carry Texas is right. They are fighting a political battle. Scaring people is not winning "hearts and minds."
People should not be scared when someone is carrying peacefully. But in a place where open carry is rare, and in a culture so misinformed about arms, open carry is going to get people's attention, and some of those people will be scared.
The way to do it at this stage is to be well dressed and groomed, civil, thoughtful, and to carry tastefully. Sidearms instead of rifles. Maybe even revolvers instead of semi-automatics (revolvers don't look as scary to some people).
When someone carries openly for political purposes they are an ambassador for the cause. It's not the doing of it that matters, but the effect of doing it. Results count.
These jackasses are getting caught up in minutia of trivial details. They are screwing up the movement. I believe in the licensed open carry of sidearms, but rifles? Though there really shouldn't be a line between the open carry of rifles and pistols, a rifle is generally thought of as an offensive weapon. A pistol is not. These people walking around suburbia with slung rifles are making trouble for the rest of us and will ultimately cause Texas legislators to vote against open carry of ANYTHING.
The most effective and rational OC is by individuals who are simply going about their ordinary daily business. This is the best way to "normalize" carry of any kind. When those who have been made fearful actually see normal people doing normal things without threatening them, they MAY be able to understand better.
When groups of people engage in "protests" or demonstrations, and are pushing a particular point, it would seem to be counterproductive to this normalization process.
The inalienable authority of each person to defend themselves and their communities is the important basis for any sort of carry. Group tactics like this make far more enemies than friends.
It oft-times is a catch 22 when gun owners open carry to flaunt their right. Yes, we have the right to do so but if it alienates those we wish to persuade it is for naught. Much can be said about just how it is accomplished and how in you face it is presented.
just showing up will create legislation to stop the practice. The police and citizens will go to the politician and say "make this go away" and then you will have a law or ordinance.
That is how this will work, and that is when the real fun will begin. Are you ready to submit to arrest and seizure of your firearm for violating, in the interest of civil disobedience? Do you make a stand and resist? Do you get yourself shot and killed by LE, and be painted by the media as a radical "patriot" right wing nut job.?
I'm with Bob on this one, particularly in light of the "mass protest" nature of these gatherings. While it is a legal exercise of rights, that is being countered by hysterical fear mongering. By being proactive in notifying LEAs and carrying flags, it helps illustrate the asymmetrical reactions from the antis.
This isn't an overnight win strategy. There is no way to do that. Long term is the only way to alter the conversation to teach the ambivalent masses in the middle.
Stop begging for permission! Those calling the cops because they see people armed are the problem! I can see offering LEO something of a heads up for larger gatherings but done as a personal consideration to personal friends among LEO rather than some formal press release.
Normalizing exercise of this right IS proper and ONE aspect of that is to drop this notion that PERMISSION is somehow required.
Those getting their panties up in a bunch being faced with having to accept that they just might interact with armed people without prior knowledge is EXACTLY the point.
As always - provide context by asking this... Does it make sense to seek permission to carry your bible to jack in the box? How about your computer? No? Well, THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS NO DIFFERENT.
If "we" treat it differently, how can we expect "them" to do anything but endlessly treat it differently?
The posters in the comments section need to understand that carry of handguns is illegal in Texas, and the open carry movement is trying to get that law changed. How to go about that is the topic of debate.
The TX CHL permit is an exemption to the law regarding carry of handguns - the exemption being valid as long as the handgun is concealed.
There is no law in Texas regarding carry of longarms,howitzers, etc. which is why the protestors bring rifles.
I was born and raised in the Dallas area. As a teenager I open carried my .22 Stevens on the streets of Oak Cliff and bought .22 ammo at the corner 7-11 until entering the military in 1967. Nobody gave me a second look. It was normal. The Communists can't take America until the nation is disarmed. That's the bottom line for them. Maybe there is some sliver of logic in dancing with the politicians but I really doubt it. That is appeasement. Appeasement has brought us to where we are today. Regardless of what we do, I think the nation is just going to become more and more polarized to the point of the final straw that breaks the camel's back. Anonymous @ May 10,2014 at 7:53 AM seems to be an appeaser.
First, apparently some commenters here aren't aware that in TX, OC of long guns is the only legal way to OC at all. OC of handguns is prohibited by statute, so that's "why OC rifles" in this specific case.
Secondly, here we find ourselves in another circular firing squad, with presumed gun owners/carriers telling other gun owners/carriers how they should act, or how they should carry, or whose fears, biases and outright prejudices they should consider before carrying however they wish to carry. Well, y'all should leave folks to make their own decisions, and you should not be foisting recriminations on brother and sister activists putting themselves out there in harm's way from either authoritarian and potentially abusive cops who don't even know the laws that they're sworn to uphold, or from earning scorn from their fellow citizens for nothing more than exercising a God-given right in public.
Here in Alabama there is a law that prohibits any guns at political demonstrations no matter if we have a permission slip or not, so these kinds of demonstrations will not happen here unless and until we get that law repealed. OC is legal here though, and I do it on a regular basis, not as a political statement, but because I believe my fully visible weapon deters more criminals from choosing me as a "good" target to victimize. I don't see OC as a "political movement," except to the degree that it is illegal in a given state and proponents are attempting to expand the legal exercises of their rights. For me though, it is strictly about deterrence, and I literally could not care less what anyone thinks about my choices in that regard.
These so-called "rifts" between advocacy groups is doing more to shoot each other in the back than any legal and public display of exercising our rights could ever do. Anyone invested in either side of such a "rift," should divest forthwith and lead by example whatever way you wish to exercise your rights, and leave others to do the same without interference from you.
I live in the Commonwealth of KY, which is about as OC friendly as it gets, and I have *never* seen anyone carrying a flippin' rifle in public... I would think OC proponents in TX would get their finest BBQ holsters out and look sharp, but that's just me....
A real stumper, huh? Mama had the principle, but understated it...
"The inalienable authority of each person to defend themselves and their communities is the important basis for any sort of carry."
It's THE important basis; technically it's the ONLY important basis, which means it's supremely important, trumping all other bases. More relevantly, it's the only one that should matter here.
Seriously, someone's arguing that someone else shouldn't choose to defend themselves, or demonstrate their defenses, as they choose? Really??
Hey, I'm a big fan of winning hearts and minds, and the practical results could be discussed till the cows come home. But really now...talking about how someone ELSE should do as they see fit, on the matter of being armed...that's really up for discussion in these parts?
Alright...discussion's fine, but I wonder what anyone would propose to do about it.
I'm a simpleton. All I know is that every person who wishes to fight FOR Tyranny, is already armed to the teeth and can get whatever they want and carry it however they wish. So the vote over here is unanimous...every other person can and should arm themselves just as best as they possibly can. And carry 'em however they choose, and never against the wishes of an owner of private property. You don't like it, don't go there. Voila, problem fixed.
The very different effects of the two groups' methods suggests that the groups' goals are not the same. Open Carry Texas's goal is to make their fellow Texans' used to seeing normal people going about normal business while armed.
I don't know what the other groups' goal is, but have to believe it is something else.
My issues with OC are: 1, The hoplophobes would have no problem lying to police about you pointing a weapon at them or someone else, just to cause you a problem, and to advance their agenda. 2 Exposing your weapons to public view surely puts the thought in someone's head that where there is one, there are likely more. Not hard, with a little surveillance, to follow you home and set you up for a robbery. You can't be condition red 24/7. Flaunting expensive weaponry(or other items)...not always a good idea.
In Texas only long guns can generally be carried openly. 45 states allow the open carry of holstered handguns; 30 of these states allow open carry without permits - so should Texas! Learn more at OpenCarry.org.
In a parallel situation here in Florida, members of the local gay rights group would sometimes begin making out in the deli line at the local supermarket. They said the rest of us needed to get used to the fact that they had rights too.
Hell, I don't want to have to watch a hetero couple making out in the supermarket deli line. Being obnoxious about rubbing other peoples noses in the fact that you have rights they wish you didn't doesn't promote your cause. It just pisses people off. Don't get me wrong. There's a time for pissing people off. But I have never convinced anyone that my position was the correct one by pissing them off. Perhaps some of you have had better luck.
Or maybe the goal wasn't to convince anyone of anything and it was all a smokescreen?
Thank you to all who kindly pointed out that, in Texas, open carry of sidearms is illegal. I did not know that. I live in Arizona, which has no such prohibition. I apologize for my mistake in suggesting that those in Texas carry sidearms during their demonstrations.
I stand by my assertion that, when fighting a political battle, it is necessary to consider the... well, political effects of one's actions. I recognize that rights are rights, and do not dispute the right of a person to carry peaceably what, where and how they wish. However, certain rightful actions, although inalienable, might not be the best actions to achieving political goals.
I live in Texas, have all of my life. I am licensed to CC and do carry everyday, all day. Even if Texas got an OC law on the books, I would still carry concealed. Even though I am licensed to CC I still feel in my heart that the 2nd amendment is my right to keep and BEAR arms. I personally would rather stay under the radar of a tyrannical Govt. Its a little harder for them to see you coming that way.
In related news, you are still free to exercise your civil rights, and the police are free to respond to the 911 calls when you do and someone becomes alarmed by it.
27 comments:
Open Carry Texas is right. They are fighting a political battle. Scaring people is not winning "hearts and minds."
People should not be scared when someone is carrying peacefully. But in a place where open carry is rare, and in a culture so misinformed about arms, open carry is going to get people's attention, and some of those people will be scared.
The way to do it at this stage is to be well dressed and groomed, civil, thoughtful, and to carry tastefully. Sidearms instead of rifles. Maybe even revolvers instead of semi-automatics (revolvers don't look as scary to some people).
When someone carries openly for political purposes they are an ambassador for the cause. It's not the doing of it that matters, but the effect of doing it. Results count.
These jackasses are getting caught up in minutia of trivial details. They are screwing up the movement. I believe in the licensed open carry of sidearms, but rifles? Though there really shouldn't be a line between the open carry of rifles and pistols, a rifle is generally thought of as an offensive weapon. A pistol is not. These people walking around suburbia with slung rifles are making trouble for the rest of us and will ultimately cause Texas legislators to vote against open carry of ANYTHING.
The most effective and rational OC is by individuals who are simply going about their ordinary daily business. This is the best way to "normalize" carry of any kind. When those who have been made fearful actually see normal people doing normal things without threatening them, they MAY be able to understand better.
When groups of people engage in "protests" or demonstrations, and are pushing a particular point, it would seem to be counterproductive to this normalization process.
The inalienable authority of each person to defend themselves and their communities is the important basis for any sort of carry. Group tactics like this make far more enemies than friends.
It oft-times is a catch 22 when gun owners open carry to flaunt their right. Yes, we have the right to do so but if it alienates those we wish to persuade it is for naught.
Much can be said about just how it is accomplished and how in you face it is presented.
just showing up will create legislation to stop the practice. The police and citizens will go to the politician and say "make this go away" and then you will have a law or ordinance.
That is how this will work, and that is when the real fun will begin. Are you ready to submit to arrest and seizure of your firearm for violating, in the interest of civil disobedience? Do you make a stand and resist? Do you get yourself shot and killed by LE, and be painted by the media as a radical "patriot" right wing nut job.?
I'm with Bob on this one, particularly in light of the "mass protest" nature of these gatherings. While it is a legal exercise of rights, that is being countered by hysterical fear mongering. By being proactive in notifying LEAs and carrying flags, it helps illustrate the asymmetrical reactions from the antis.
This isn't an overnight win strategy. There is no way to do that. Long term is the only way to alter the conversation to teach the ambivalent masses in the middle.
I think it is illegal to open carry sidearms in Texas. Not sure though.
Stop begging for permission! Those calling the cops because they see people armed are the problem! I can see offering LEO something of a heads up for larger gatherings but done as a personal consideration to personal friends among LEO rather than some formal press release.
Normalizing exercise of this right IS proper and ONE aspect of that is to drop this notion that PERMISSION is somehow required.
Those getting their panties up in a bunch being faced with having to accept that they just might interact with armed people without prior knowledge is EXACTLY the point.
As always - provide context by asking this...
Does it make sense to seek permission to carry your bible to jack in the box? How about your computer? No? Well, THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS NO DIFFERENT.
If "we" treat it differently, how can we expect "them" to do anything but endlessly treat it differently?
Not One More Inch.
The posters in the comments section need to understand that carry of handguns is illegal in Texas, and the open carry movement is trying to get that law changed. How to go about that is the topic of debate.
The TX CHL permit is an exemption to the law regarding carry of handguns - the exemption being valid as long as the handgun is concealed.
There is no law in Texas regarding carry of longarms,howitzers, etc. which is why the protestors bring rifles.
I was born and raised in the Dallas area. As a teenager I open carried my .22 Stevens on the streets of Oak Cliff and bought .22 ammo at the corner 7-11 until entering the military in 1967. Nobody gave me a second look. It was normal.
The Communists can't take America until the nation is disarmed. That's the bottom line for them.
Maybe there is some sliver of logic in dancing with the politicians but I really doubt it. That is appeasement. Appeasement has brought us to where we are today. Regardless of what we do, I think the nation is just going to become more and more polarized to the point of the final straw that breaks the camel's back. Anonymous @ May 10,2014 at 7:53 AM seems to be an appeaser.
Wayne, part of the problem is that in TX, you can "legally" CC a handgun but not OC.
Therefore, your protest is either "illegal" or it involves a long gun.
First, apparently some commenters here aren't aware that in TX, OC of long guns is the only legal way to OC at all. OC of handguns is prohibited by statute, so that's "why OC rifles" in this specific case.
Secondly, here we find ourselves in another circular firing squad, with presumed gun owners/carriers telling other gun owners/carriers how they should act, or how they should carry, or whose fears, biases and outright prejudices they should consider before carrying however they wish to carry. Well, y'all should leave folks to make their own decisions, and you should not be foisting recriminations on brother and sister activists putting themselves out there in harm's way from either authoritarian and potentially abusive cops who don't even know the laws that they're sworn to uphold, or from earning scorn from their fellow citizens for nothing more than exercising a God-given right in public.
Here in Alabama there is a law that prohibits any guns at political demonstrations no matter if we have a permission slip or not, so these kinds of demonstrations will not happen here unless and until we get that law repealed. OC is legal here though, and I do it on a regular basis, not as a political statement, but because I believe my fully visible weapon deters more criminals from choosing me as a "good" target to victimize. I don't see OC as a "political movement," except to the degree that it is illegal in a given state and proponents are attempting to expand the legal exercises of their rights. For me though, it is strictly about deterrence, and I literally could not care less what anyone thinks about my choices in that regard.
These so-called "rifts" between advocacy groups is doing more to shoot each other in the back than any legal and public display of exercising our rights could ever do. Anyone invested in either side of such a "rift," should divest forthwith and lead by example whatever way you wish to exercise your rights, and leave others to do the same without interference from you.
CzarChasmIII
I think legislation needs to be enacted to erect gun lockers outside every fast food restaurant in Texas...
I live in the Commonwealth of KY, which is about as OC friendly as it gets, and I have *never* seen anyone carrying a flippin' rifle in public... I would think OC proponents in TX would get their finest BBQ holsters out and look sharp, but that's just me....
A real stumper, huh? Mama had the principle, but understated it...
"The inalienable authority of each person to defend themselves and their communities is the important basis for any sort of carry."
It's THE important basis; technically it's the ONLY important basis, which means it's supremely important, trumping all other bases. More relevantly, it's the only one that should matter here.
Seriously, someone's arguing that someone else shouldn't choose to defend themselves, or demonstrate their defenses, as they choose? Really??
Hey, I'm a big fan of winning hearts and minds, and the practical results could be discussed till the cows come home. But really now...talking about how someone ELSE should do as they see fit, on the matter of being armed...that's really up for discussion in these parts?
Alright...discussion's fine, but I wonder what anyone would propose to do about it.
I'm a simpleton. All I know is that every person who wishes to fight FOR Tyranny, is already armed to the teeth and can get whatever they want and carry it however they wish. So the vote over here is unanimous...every other person can and should arm themselves just as best as they possibly can. And carry 'em however they choose, and never against the wishes of an owner of private property. You don't like it, don't go there. Voila, problem fixed.
Open carry of long arms is legal in TX.
Open carry of sidearms is NOT.
Stupid, but that a the way the law is in TX right now.
The very different effects of the two groups' methods suggests that the groups' goals are not the same. Open Carry Texas's goal is to make their fellow Texans' used to seeing normal people going about normal business while armed.
I don't know what the other groups' goal is, but have to believe it is something else.
My issues with OC are: 1, The hoplophobes would have no problem lying to police about you pointing a weapon at them or someone else, just to cause you a problem, and to advance their agenda. 2 Exposing your weapons to public view surely puts the thought in someone's head that where there is one, there are likely more. Not hard, with a little surveillance, to follow you home and set you up for a robbery. You can't be condition red 24/7. Flaunting expensive weaponry(or other items)...not always a good idea.
Hmmm - perhaps I should ring Police to tell them I am about to exrecise my right of free speach and post here ....
Be back after I have rung them - if they agree to allow me to exercise that First Amendment right ...
III
In Texas only long guns can generally be carried openly. 45 states allow the open carry of holstered handguns; 30 of these states allow open carry without permits - so should Texas! Learn more at OpenCarry.org.
Well said, anon at 10:17
In a parallel situation here in Florida, members of the local gay rights group would sometimes begin making out in the deli line at the local supermarket. They said the rest of us needed to get used to the fact that they had rights too.
Hell, I don't want to have to watch a hetero couple making out in the supermarket deli line. Being obnoxious about rubbing other peoples noses in the fact that you have rights they wish you didn't doesn't promote your cause. It just pisses people off. Don't get me wrong. There's a time for pissing people off. But I have never convinced anyone that my position was the correct one by pissing them off. Perhaps some of you have had better luck.
Or maybe the goal wasn't to convince anyone of anything and it was all a smokescreen?
Thank you to all who kindly pointed out that, in Texas, open carry of sidearms is illegal. I did not know that. I live in Arizona, which has no such prohibition. I apologize for my mistake in suggesting that those in Texas carry sidearms during their demonstrations.
I stand by my assertion that, when fighting a political battle, it is necessary to consider the... well, political effects of one's actions. I recognize that rights are rights, and do not dispute the right of a person to carry peaceably what, where and how they wish. However, certain rightful actions, although inalienable, might not be the best actions to achieving political goals.
Think about the premise upon which AMERICANS are operating here in this "debate".....
Openly exercising a ENUMERATED right is "illegal".
Can you say "dichotomy".
I live in Texas, have all of my life. I am licensed to CC and do carry everyday, all day. Even if Texas got an OC law on the books, I would still carry concealed. Even though I am licensed to CC I still feel in my heart that the 2nd amendment is my right to keep and BEAR arms. I personally would rather stay under the radar of a tyrannical Govt. Its a little harder for them to see you coming that way.
Anonymous in Texas: You're "licensed to CC" and you think you're "under the radar"?
In related news, you are still free to exercise your civil rights, and the police are free to respond to the 911 calls when you do and someone becomes alarmed by it.
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